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Dark Matter, Cluster Dynamics and The Bullet |
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| Apr4-10, 02:08 AM | #1 |
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Dark Matter, Cluster Dynamics and The Bullet
Everyone points to the Bullet Cluster as the best proof of Dark Matter. But I have a few questions about the rationale. There are aspects of the proof I don't understand.
1) What is the mechanism which makes the interstellar gas visible at such a distance in this particular case? Is all intergalactic gas visible in the same way and at the same brightness levels? 2) How do we know that all or most of the intergalactic gas collided? How do we know that it wasn't the case that most of the gas stayed with the galaxies and only some collided which was subsequently made much brighter because of the heating due to the collision? So in effect, how do we know that the part that forms the bullet wasn't merely just a visible small fraction of the intergalactic gas that collided while the bulk of the gas passed through the other cluster with the visible galaxies themselves? 3) What would have caused the gas to slow down so much as it passed through the other gas? At the densities of intergalactic gas, it seems odd that much of it would have actually collided at the atomic level. What am I missing? Thanks in advance. |
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| Apr4-10, 06:25 AM | #2 |
| Apr4-10, 06:25 PM | #3 |
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With all due respect, I don't see how this answers my question at all. The density of intergalactic space is reported to be 10 to 100 hydrogen atoms of hydrogen per cubic meter. In a cubic meter of air you have about 10^25 molecules. The potential for a collision must go up as the square of the number of molecules, so we are talking about hundreds of orders of magnitude less likelihood of a collision for intergalactic molecules when compared with air at STP, unless I'm missing something. |
| Apr4-10, 08:58 PM | #4 |
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Dark Matter, Cluster Dynamics and The BulletNow we know that the intergalactic gas and the galaxies are 'inside' the Dark Matter, 'caught' by gravity, a long time ago, right? And if two galaxy clusters collide – there’s 100% chance that the gas that actually 'made' these galaxies also collide, right? (To be even more specific – the Dark Matter is so dominant, that it actually surrounds the whole galaxy cluster.) The reason the galaxies didn’t collide, is the same as why Andromeda and Milky Way don’t collide at present. I hope you realize what this means? If not: Imagine driving the hottest open sports car in extremely light rain – at 200 mph... Now, imagine doing the same thing but 30,000 times faster! Yes right, big 'problems'... (And you must not think of gas particles as 'nice' raindrops – these little 'creatures' moves around, rapidly. And the hotter they get, the more they move = more heat...) I can guarantee you that the collision created this enormous heat. EDIT: Extremely bad formulation. As a layman I can’t guarantee you anything. Read the "popular press" (=Wikipedia??) and everything else you can find on the subject, and make your own decision.Don’t agree? Well, then you better come up with a logical explanation for the gas at 100 million degree Celsius... |
| Apr4-10, 09:23 PM | #5 |
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Mentor
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| Apr4-10, 09:55 PM | #6 |
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Once we start integrating our views of our local universe in LOTS of wavelengths, the universe seems a lot more interacting and a lot less discontinuous. Browse through here: http://www.nrao.edu/astrores/HIrogue...ery/index.html |
| Apr4-10, 09:56 PM | #7 |
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![]() Seriously, if the universal standard for intergalactic gas is 100 million degree Celsius – I give up. If not – you come up with a better 'natural' explanation for this 'behavior' and formation. (I asked first, and you are the expert... )(Gas 'dragged' into Black Holes at extreme speed emits x-ray, right?) |
| Apr4-10, 10:22 PM | #8 |
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So, when cosmologist Max Tegmark (MIT) says that the Bullet Cluster probably is going to prove DM, or when Sean Carroll (Caltech) writes about the Bullet Cluster as the proof for DM – this "popularized versions of professional publications are often wildly inaccurate" ...?? And Wikipedia is classified as "popular press" ...!? And NASA is wildly inaccurate? Promoting unscientific LIES on their official HubbleSite ...!?!? ![]() Good night everybody. |
| Apr4-10, 11:14 PM | #9 |
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The primary emission mechanism for a large cluster is Bremsstrahlung emission -- Bremsstrahlung literally means "braking radiation" and it is so named because it is caused by charged particles which have been accelerated by the electric field of another charged particle. In the case of the ICM, which is so hot that the gas is ionised and emits in X-rays, it is a fast moving electron which is accelerated by a slower moving proton, or positively charged ion. All clusters emit X-rays via Bremsstrahlung, and particularly large clusters have their X-ray emission dominated by Bremsstrahlung. Smaller clusters may have a larger contribution of their X-ray emission from emission due to collisional excitation of the ions. Both emission mechanisms are caused by collisions, thus the brightness of the X-ray emission depends on the square of the gas density. |
| Apr4-10, 11:41 PM | #10 |
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Thanks matt.o! Brilliant!!
You are the first one here who seems to know what he’s talking about (including me ).Just one question: |
| Apr4-10, 11:44 PM | #11 |
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| Apr5-10, 12:03 AM | #12 |
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Hehe! Victory is sweet! matt.o if you are a girl I want to marry you!! You are my hero!! (noo, just a silly joke, sorry) ![]() Thank you so very very much matt.o!!! EDIT: Sorry for the 'madness'... It’s very late, and yes, I was somewhat 'frustrated'... But I’m cool now (and perfectly normal, I promise ). Peace to everyone. Good night.
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| Apr5-10, 01:24 AM | #13 |
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Recognitions:
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There are other pieces of evidence that may, on balance, be better evidence (such as the CMB), but tend to be rather complicated and messy to explain. The Bullet Cluster has the virtue of being rather simple and obvious. I think matt.o did a good job with the rest of it. |
| Apr5-10, 01:30 AM | #14 |
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matt.o and Chalnoth,
Thanks for the explanations. That clears some things up. |
| Apr6-10, 12:54 PM | #15 |
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1) Where is the gas located? 2) Where are the galaxies located? 3) Does the gas make up for ~80% of the baryonic (ordinary) mass? I could be wrong, but to my understanding these questions can be answered with rather high precision by the cosmologist. Now, we use Gravitational Lensing to find where the majority of mass is located. ![]() And it’s not in the gas, where you would expect it to be. One could argue that this doesn’t prove anything – this is only one strange phenomenon in the gigantic universe. It could be extremely fat green aliens in tremendously massive spaceships, hiding behind the galaxies, just as the photo is taken... We can’t reject the "Massive-Alien-Theory" – but if this is the case, there must be a whole community of "massive aliens" out there, because now there’s another proof of "unknown massive objects" in MACS J0025.4-1222. In the case of MACS J0025.4-1222, even a layman can see where the gravitational lensing is dominant: ![]() MACS J0025.4-1222 in 60 Seconds Plus If this was the only indication of Dark Matter, the discussion could be extensive whether it’s Aliens, or MOND 2eV hot neutrinos, or Dark Matter, or something else. But it isn’t:
etc... |
| Apr6-10, 01:00 PM | #16 |
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Recognitions:
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I don't think anybody would ever seriously consider a "massive alien theory".
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| Apr6-10, 01:06 PM | #17 |
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