Can an Accelerating Universe Rotate According to GR Principles?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether an accelerating universe can exhibit rotation according to General Relativity (GR) principles. Participants explore theoretical scenarios involving two planets or stars and the implications of rotation, centrifugal forces, and Mach's principle within the context of GR.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if centrifugal forces can be experienced by only one of two rotating planets, suggesting that it depends on their relative motion.
  • Another participant clarifies that in a binary system, one star can revolve around another, leading to different experiences of centrifugal forces based on their motion.
  • There is a challenge regarding the distinction between a stationary star and a revolving one, with references to the solar system as a more complex example.
  • Some participants mention Mach's principle, proposing that inertial forces arise from movement relative to the matter in the universe, though its role in mechanical models is debated.
  • It is noted that while Mach's principle influenced Einstein, it is not explicitly embedded in GR, and defining it precisely remains a challenge.
  • Discussion includes the possibility of a universe having non-zero angular momentum according to GR, with some participants questioning what this means for the universe's rotation.
  • One participant references Gödel's solution, which describes a rotating universe and its implications for time travel, indicating a historical context to the discussion.
  • There is an assertion that acceleration and rotation have absolute effects, contrasting with uniform velocity, and that a universe in GR can rotate without needing a reference frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of rotation in an accelerating universe, the interpretation of Mach's principle, and the nature of inertial forces. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the nature of rotation, the definitions of stationary and revolving bodies, and the implications of Mach's principle are not fully explored, leaving room for further clarification and debate.

blue_sky
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I have a doubt.
Let consider an universe of only 2 planets with the form of 2 dishes on the same z axis.
The 2 dishes are rotating 1 respect to the other.
Can we experience centrifugal forces only on 1 of them?
 
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Im not sure i understand what you are asking, but i'll answer anyways. If you had 2 planets only, (or 2 stars) you can have a case where one is revolving around the other, or you can have a case where both are revolving around each other, which a lot of binary star systems do. In the first case only one would feel centrifugal forces, while in case 2, both would.
 
If in the universe there are just 2 stars, how you can saw:
ArmoSkater87 said:
you can have a case where one is revolving around the other
?
If 1 is revolving around the other, is also true the opposite and who or what can distinguish the 1 star revolving and the 1 still?
 
What do u mean? Dont you consider the sun to be stationary in respect to the solar system?? So why can't you have a stationary star, with another revolving around it?
 
The Sun and the planets in the Solar System all revolve around their common center of gravity; all theories of gravitation, in particular Newton's and Einsteins's are symmetrical between the gravitating masses. Look up "back reaction".

The Sun is only stationary in relation to the planets to a first approximation.
 
I think it's a fair question, as one reading of Mach's principle says that inertial forces are caused by movement relative to the matter in the universe, but this doesn't really feature in any of the mechanical models that we have.
 
ArmoSkater87 said:
What do u mean? Dont you consider the sun to be stationary in respect to the solar system?? So why can't you have a stationary star, with another revolving around it?
My question is based on the assumption that the universe is made just by the 2 planet (or stars).
In your answer the solar system is embedded in a larger universe and this make a lot of difference.
 
ArmoSkater87 said:
Im not sure i understand what you are asking, but i'll answer anyways. If you had 2 planets only, (or 2 stars) you can have a case where one is revolving around the other, or you can have a case where both are revolving around each other, which a lot of binary star systems do. In the first case only one would feel centrifugal forces, while in case 2, both would.

your answer is right here. :biggrin:
 
jcsd said:
I think it's a fair question, as one reading of Mach's principle says that inertial forces are caused by movement relative to the matter in the universe, but this doesn't really feature in any of the mechanical models that we have.

Thanks.
Is the Mach's principle not embedded in the GR?
 
  • #10
blue_sky said:
Thanks.
Is the Mach's principle not embedded in the GR?

Not as I stated it. Imagine an object accelarting against a Minkowslkian background (i.e. a univesre that contains no mass!), you'll still have inertial forces. I think it appears in a more general sense: i.e. the relativity of accelartion.
 
  • #11
blue_sky said:
Thanks.
Is the Mach's principle not embedded in the GR?

Mach's principle influenced Einstein, but you won't find it embedded in GR. One key issue with Mach's principle in general is defining what it means, precisely.

You appear to be thinking about the question as to whether it's possible in principle for a universe to have a total nonzero angular momentum. In GR the answer is "yes".
 
  • #12
pervect said:
You appear to be thinking about the question as to whether it's possible in principle for a universe to have a total nonzero angular momentum. In GR the answer is "yes".

this means that the universe is rotating? if yes, relative to what?
 
  • #13
blue_sky said:
this means that the universe is rotating? if yes, relative to what?

Hmmm. I may well be mistaken, but was not Godels solution a rotating universe ?
I seem to remember that this annoyed his close friend Einstein because it allowed closed world lines, i.e. time travel.
 
  • #14
blue_sky said:
this means that the universe is rotating? if yes, relative to what?

A uniform velocity has no local effects on physics, but acceleration and rotation certaiinly do. If one is in a closed elevator, one can tell that the elevator is accelerating by the apparent inertial forces which cause objects to fall. If one is in a rotating room one can detect the centrifugal and coriolis forces. This is commonly phrased by saying that "acceleration is not relative, it's absolute".

It's certainly possible to postulate a universe with non-zero angular momentum according to the principles of GR. If one has a verion of Mach's principle which attempts to prohibit this, this version of Mach's principle is NOT part of GR. Less formally, a universe in GR _can_ rotate, and it doesn't need anything else to rotate relative to.
 
  • #15
pervect said:
A uniform velocity has no local effects on physics, but acceleration and rotation certaiinly do. If one is in a closed elevator, one can tell that the elevator is accelerating by the apparent inertial forces which cause objects to fall. If one is in a rotating room one can detect the centrifugal and coriolis forces. This is commonly phrased by saying that "acceleration is not relative, it's absolute".

It's certainly possible to postulate a universe with non-zero angular momentum according to the principles of GR. If one has a verion of Mach's principle which attempts to prohibit this, this version of Mach's principle is NOT part of GR. Less formally, a universe in GR _can_ rotate, and it doesn't need anything else to rotate relative to.

That unclear to me (but can be just my fault)
 

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