- #1
Adam
- 65
- 1
What ever became of that shooting at Kent State University? Were the soldiers charged and convicted? Was their CO?
American soldiers shooting American civilians
- Context: News
- Thread starter Adam
- Start date
Click For Summary
Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the events of the Kent State University shooting, where National Guardsmen fired on students during a protest in 1970. Participants explore the aftermath, legal consequences, and differing perspectives on the incident's implications and the actions of both the soldiers and the students involved.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Historical
- Meta-discussion
Main Points Raised
- Some participants note that the soldiers were charged but found innocent, with criticism directed at both the military's and the university's handling of the situation.
- Others argue that the lack of accountability stemmed from the inability to identify the shooters due to soldiers wearing gas masks, leading to no charges being filed.
- A participant recounts that the shooting was a culmination of escalating tensions, suggesting that the soldiers' actions were a reaction to provocation from the crowd.
- Some express strong emotional responses, labeling the event as murder and criticizing the government's handling of the trials.
- There are references to cultural representations of the event, such as the film 'Billy Jack,' with mixed opinions on its portrayal.
- Several participants engage in a meta-discussion about the relevance of revisiting the incident decades later, questioning the motivations behind discussing it now.
- Clarifications are made regarding the ROTC program and its relationship to the events, with some participants correcting misconceptions about the National Guard's presence and actions.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants express a range of views, with no consensus on the moral implications of the shooting or the adequacy of the legal outcomes. Disagreements arise regarding the motivations for discussing the incident and the responsibilities of both the soldiers and the students.
Contextual Notes
Limitations include the lack of definitive evidence regarding the identity of the shooters and the complex social dynamics leading up to the incident, which remain points of contention among participants.
- #2
BobG
Science Advisor
- 364
- 87
They were charged and found innocent of any criminal charges. Finding them innocent doesn't mean anyone approved of the way they handled things. The way the university had handled the May 4 weekend and demonstrations in the past also took a lot of criticism - the 'norm' at Kent St was primed for a situation that would go out of control.
The State of Ohio was sued and found 'innocent' in '75, but eventually an appeal resulted in a new civil suit trial. The state settled with some of the injured for $675,000 rather than face another trial.
Two of the students pleaded guilty to rioting, one was found guilty of a misdemeanor 'interfering with a fireman' charge (the shooting was just a culmination of a weekend that included burning down the ROTC building). The charges against 20 some other students were dropped (the order of the cases had the state's strongest cases first, so they quit after they lost a couple cases). Ironically, the only one to serve any time was the student guilty of the misdemeanor charge - he was wanted on a drug charge at the time and wound up doing 10-20 on the drug charge.
I lived near there and in was junior high school when that happened. Nearly 30 years later, my daughter joined the Ohio National Guard.
The State of Ohio was sued and found 'innocent' in '75, but eventually an appeal resulted in a new civil suit trial. The state settled with some of the injured for $675,000 rather than face another trial.
Two of the students pleaded guilty to rioting, one was found guilty of a misdemeanor 'interfering with a fireman' charge (the shooting was just a culmination of a weekend that included burning down the ROTC building). The charges against 20 some other students were dropped (the order of the cases had the state's strongest cases first, so they quit after they lost a couple cases). Ironically, the only one to serve any time was the student guilty of the misdemeanor charge - he was wanted on a drug charge at the time and wound up doing 10-20 on the drug charge.
I lived near there and in was junior high school when that happened. Nearly 30 years later, my daughter joined the Ohio National Guard.
- #3
JohnDubYa
- 468
- 1
If you are really interested (and I doubt you are) you should read James Michener's book Kent State.
Since the soldiers were wearing gas masks (they had used tear gas earlier on the crowd) no one knows who fired the shots. Simply put, one of the soldiers, after having to wear a hot gas mask all day and being continually taunted by a crowd of college students, lost his cool and fired a shot. (No one knows if he aimed at a student, or just fired a warning shot.) someone else, having heard the shot, must have thought the order to fire had been given and opened fire as well.
If a man is carrying a fully loaded rifle, don't taunt him. I guess that's the lesson that should be learned.
Since the soldiers were wearing gas masks (they had used tear gas earlier on the crowd) no one knows who fired the shots. Simply put, one of the soldiers, after having to wear a hot gas mask all day and being continually taunted by a crowd of college students, lost his cool and fired a shot. (No one knows if he aimed at a student, or just fired a warning shot.) someone else, having heard the shot, must have thought the order to fire had been given and opened fire as well.
If a man is carrying a fully loaded rifle, don't taunt him. I guess that's the lesson that should be learned.
- #4
amp
There was a movie made called 'Billy Jack' which sort of depicted the scenerio Jdubya portrayed.
- #5
Adam
- 65
- 1
One of the worst movies ever made.
- #6
JohnDubYa
- 468
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My God, we actually agree on something.
That can't be right. Maybe I should watch Billy Jack again.
That can't be right. Maybe I should watch Billy Jack again.
- #7
ray b
- 181
- 0
four dead in O HI O
Here are the names of those who died at Kent State, so that they may not be forgotten:
ALISON KRAUSE
JEFFREY MILLER
SANDRA SCHEUER
WILLIAM SCHROEDER
it was murder plain and simple
whitewashed by the government in a BOGUS trial on civil rights charges
in federal court
no state charges were ever filed
THE PIGS GOT AWAY WITH MURDER THAT DAY
Here are the names of those who died at Kent State, so that they may not be forgotten:
ALISON KRAUSE
JEFFREY MILLER
SANDRA SCHEUER
WILLIAM SCHROEDER
it was murder plain and simple
whitewashed by the government in a BOGUS trial on civil rights charges
in federal court
no state charges were ever filed
THE PIGS GOT AWAY WITH MURDER THAT DAY
- #8
BoulderHead
Talk about government education !
- #9
GENIERE
BoulderHead said:
Defines "oxymoron"!
- #10
JohnDubYa
- 468
- 1
No one was charged because no one knew who did it!
To file charges, you have to have more than a suspect. You have to have evidence. All of the soldiers were wearing gas masks, and no one ever was able to make a positive id of the shooter(s).
The entire event was unfortunate. The ROTC building should not have been burned. The students should have dispersed as they were told. The students should not have thrown rocks at the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen should not have opened fire.
It's basic human nature. They have been wearing gas masks all day. It's hot. Students burned down their headquarters the night before. They are insulting them and throwing stuff at them. Sooner or later, someone is going to lose his cool. And it happened. No excuse, but certainly no surprise.
To file charges, you have to have more than a suspect. You have to have evidence. All of the soldiers were wearing gas masks, and no one ever was able to make a positive id of the shooter(s).
The entire event was unfortunate. The ROTC building should not have been burned. The students should have dispersed as they were told. The students should not have thrown rocks at the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen should not have opened fire.
It's basic human nature. They have been wearing gas masks all day. It's hot. Students burned down their headquarters the night before. They are insulting them and throwing stuff at them. Sooner or later, someone is going to lose his cool. And it happened. No excuse, but certainly no surprise.
- #11
BobG
Science Advisor
- 364
- 87
JohnDubYa said:
Only one correction - the National Guard unit wasn't headquartered on campus. The ROTC building contained classrooms for students training to become officers in the reserves or possibly as active duty officers.
Demonstrators had also harassed students that were participating in the ROTC program, sometimes physically, resulting in superficial scrapes and bumps. (ROTC stands for Reserve Officer Training Course and provides a pretty good tuition assistance program starting with a student's second year in the program).
That weekend marked the end of the Reserves supporting a ROTC program at Kent St. It took a long time before the Reserves were interested in starting a ROTC program back up at Kent St.
- #12
Dissident Dan
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Adam, I don't understand why nearly every thread you start has the purpose of bashing the USA. Sure, we have our share of problems, but so do all countries. There are many much worse human rights records.
- #13
JohnDubYa
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I think the C in ROTC stands for Corps.
- #14
Adam
- 65
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Dissident Dan said:
WTF are you talking about?
- #15
Hurkyl
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
- 14,922
- 28
He's probably talking about the fact that nearly every thread you start in this forum has the apparent purpose of bashing the USA.
- #16
Adam
- 65
- 1
Ah, assumptions. Very clever. I'm accustomed to it though.
- #17
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,876
- 11,344
So what was the purpose of this thread then? You were curious and didn't feel like googling? Do you honestly think anyone believes that? This incident happened 30 years ago. Why bring it up? What is the relevance?Adam said:
- #18
BobG
Science Advisor
- 364
- 87
JohnDubYa said:
Thanks. Twenty years in the military and I never could get the hang of all the acronyms.
Granted, neither did the military. I remember when I first joined I had to look up TBD in the glossary and all it said was "To be determined". Twenty years of eager anticipation to no avail - twenty years later, they still hadn't determined what it meant.
- #19
kat
- 45
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BOBG- HAHA Thanks!
- #20
Adam
- 65
- 1
russ_watters said:
I usually don't sit here searching through the internet using search engines. I generally post what I know or already have bookmarked or such. So, as you suggested, I didn't feel like "googling".
Why bring it up? Since it was raised in another thread, I was curious. I did not know what happened after the incident.
Now perhaps you could leave off your obsesssion with me (although I'm flattered, certainly) and focus on the topic?