Why is Asperger's considered a form of autism?


by GreatEscapist
Tags: asperger, autism, considered, form
rhody
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Jul1-10, 08:41 PM
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On reflection of this finding, the thought occurred to me, the only way to see a rEEG evidence of a seizure (without actually waiting for one to happen, then try to get the equipment on and test for it) would be to look for warning signs in the scan and real time analysis (like tremors before an earthquake). Or, God forbid find a way to induce one. I don't believe that scenario either. So how did she, Dr Shankardass, pull this off ?

nismaratwork, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr ?

Rhody...
nismaratwork
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Jul3-10, 11:22 PM
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Quote Quote by rhody View Post
On reflection of this finding, the thought occurred to me, the only way to see a rEEG evidence of a seizure (without actually waiting for one to happen, then try to get the equipment on and test for it) would be to look for warning signs in the scan and real time analysis (like tremors before an earthquake). Or, God forbid find a way to induce one. I don't believe that scenario either. So how did she, Dr Shankardass, pull this off ?

nismaratwork, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr ?

Rhody...
When you think of a seizure, most people think of the "grand mal" or Tonic-Clonic seizure; a massive event preceded by aura or other signs. In this case, what I'm hearing sounds like a nearly constant abnormal activity. In her website she describes this as "epileptiform" activity, which is just what is sounds like. This is not a new concept, but that it could be a factor in childhood developmental disorders is much broader application of the concept.

I'm going to assume that you have a functional knowledge of epilepsy, and if not the wikipedia article is not terrible. Because of the nature of this activity, it presents very regularly, in what I would describe as advancing and retreating waves of abnormal firing throughout the cortex. Consider this work in '99 which used EEG's sensing this activity to trigger the (then even more expensive to use) fMRI and capture the activity in real time. http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/...act/122/9/1679

This is only of interest to the researchers at the time as a test of fMRI, but it shows how what Dr. Shankardass doesn't require unethical means:

Quote Quote by OxfordJournals
We have systematically studied and resolved the issues of patient safety and pulse artefact and now report the application of the technique in 24 experiments in 10 consecutive patients with localization-related epilepsy and frequent interictal epileptiform discharges (spikes or spike wave). At least two experiments were performed for each patient. In each experiment, 10- or 20-slice snapshot gradient-echo planar images were acquired ~3.5 s after a single typical epileptiform discharge (activation image) and in the absence of discharges (control image). Between 21 and 50 epileptiform discharges were sampled in each experiment. The significance of functional activation was tested using the t test at 95% confidence on a pixel-by-pixel basis. Six of the 10 patients showed reproducible focal changes of the blood oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) signal, which occurred in close spatial relationship to the maximum of the epileptiform discharges in the concurrent EEG.
Now, for seizure activity that doesn't kindly pop up ever few minutes or more, such as the afformentioned tonic-clonic seizure, there are animal models http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...07d0d9037cf3ae

and "happy" accidents. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12153004

Generally speaking, inducing this kind of seizure is no more extreme than inducing someone with schizophreniform disorder(s?) to show symptoms; it is nearly if not entirely constant. This is why I am struck by the brilliance of this approach, which while it probably doesn't account for the majority of people with developmental disorders, is still clearly a useful tool in an generally arcane arsenal.

Keep in mind, that anti-seizure medications are often perscribed off-label, in fact we have a member here who mentioned taking Gabapentin for neuropathic joint pain, and that is in fact a powerful anti-seizure drug. Autistic children are often given benzodiazapines on occasion, and again, rarely do you see a dramatic improvement. In the end, I doubt that this will prove to be the answer to most, but if it accounts for only a tiny percentage it will be a nearly miraculous breakthrough in the clinical side of this problem, and open new avenues of research into other dysfunction.

This is a study from 2009 regarding schizophrenia and the role the DMN (Default Mode Network) seems to play (or reflect?) in it. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/4/1279.full.pdf

It is in my view, an excellent piece of work, and personally knowing several of the study authors, we've discussed the wide range of roles the DMN seems to play in everything from schizophrenia, to ADHD. Everyone is still scratching their heads a bit and trying to understand if this represents a cause, or something like encoding information in the event horizon of a black hole. Once again, in this case, there is no need to induce anything, but rather it is the constant activity under various circumstances which creates the opportunity for study in such depth.

Now, this is not epileptiform, but the notion of a constant failure in the regulation of signaling across a large area is common between the two. It is, in my view, too soon to know what this means. It is soon enough to conclude that there are people out there who may be considered eccentric and are simply like those 1st degree relatives, and children who are believed to be autistic or otherwise "damaged" who are suffering from something along the lines of what Dr. Shankardass describes.

It's known that epilepsy and other seizure activity can cause damage, so the trick here was in finding what would not have been otherwise detected. The range that falls into clinically defined seizures is already covered, but this... is very interesting. This, like the exploration of the role of the DMN, represents another increase in "resolution" when looking at the picture of the brain and just how it does that voodoo... you get the idea.
fuzzyfelt
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Jul5-10, 04:40 AM
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Quote Quote by nismaratwork View Post

This is a study from 2009 regarding schizophrenia and the role the DMN (Default Mode Network) seems to play (or reflect?) in it. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/4/1279.full.pdf
I haven't read that yet, but once linked Charles McCreery's hypothesis about sleep, thinking it seemed a little related to this.
nismaratwork
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Jul6-10, 02:16 PM
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Quote Quote by fuzzyfelt View Post
I haven't read that yet, but once linked Charles McCreery's hypothesis about sleep, thinking it seemed a little related to this.
I'm not sure if it's related, but it would seem to be a logical extension of the "never off" theory.
rhody
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Jul6-10, 04:32 PM
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nismaratwork,
I'm going to assume that you have a functional knowledge of epilepsy
Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.

Fast forward to last summer, vacation at Disney in August (yes, I know what you are thinking, are you nuts ?). Due to bad economy great deal on 2 week stay. During the trip the daughter, now almost 16 had three grand mal seizures in 14 days. The one that struck a chord with me started in the pool. I was talking to her and she spaced out for 10 - 15 seconds, then said, you could see the fear in the eyes as well, "I need to go to the room now, she knew a seizure was on the way." I didn't because I had never seen the spaced out precursor before up close and personal. We got her back to the room, not in time though, I had to fireman carry her part way. She was given a powerful suppository that took immediate effect. I would guess the seizure lasted two to three minutes.

Her Mom said that she is diagnosed as having both, petite and gran mal (now known as: Tonic–clonic). She can have either type, and the stressor's from wiki:
The seizure threshold can be altered by fatigue, malnutrition, lack of sleep or rest, hypertension, stress, diabetes, the presence of neon or laser flashes or lights, rapid motion or flight, blood sugar imbalances, anxiety,antihistamines and other factors
Fast forward to today, her Neurologist's have made adjustments to her meds. I am happy to report she has not had a Tonic-clonic in the past four months. A good thing because we are planning to vacation with them this August to a hot Caribbean island, so the same stressor's will be present as last year.

You also said:
it presents very regularly, in what I would describe as advancing and retreating waves of abnormal firing throughout the cortex.
From wiki link:

I saw a show recently where a physicist, I am not sure of his name, who may have authored this paper: Extreme Ocean Waves, used non-linear methods (schrodinger equation) to predict Rogue waves that up to then was thought impossible, and since proved to be true. I scanned the abstract briefly and it appears that one of our PF members contributed in some way contributed to this paper (Hans de Vries).

My point is: can similar models be created then used within the brain to predict the onset of the brain waves event or events that in some way mimic rogue ocean wave behavior in the brain, (with a rogue wave as a triggering event) which in turn lead to petite or Tonic–clonic seizures. If so, then can monitoring devices including stimulation sensors act to intervene before a seizure occurs ? I have to believe it could be possible, in part by consulting experts in rogue wave behavior.

Rhody...
nismaratwork
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#96
Jul7-10, 09:25 AM
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Quote Quote by rhody View Post
nismaratwork,

Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.

Fast forward to last summer, vacation at Disney in August (yes, I know what you are thinking, are you nuts ?). Due to bad economy great deal on 2 week stay. During the trip the daughter, now almost 16 had three grand mal seizures in 14 days. The one that struck a chord with me started in the pool. I was talking to her and she spaced out for 10 - 15 seconds, then said, you could see the fear in the eyes as well, "I need to go to the room now, she knew a seizure was on the way." I didn't because I had never seen the spaced out precursor before up close and personal. We got her back to the room, not in time though, I had to fireman carry her part way. She was given a powerful suppository that took immediate effect. I would guess the seizure lasted two to three minutes.

Her Mom said that she is diagnosed as having both, petite and gran mal (now known as: Tonic–clonic). She can have either type, and the stressor's from wiki:


Fast forward to today, her Neurologist's have made adjustments to her meds. I am happy to report she has not had a Tonic-clonic in the past four months. A good thing because we are planning to vacation with them this August to a hot Caribbean island, so the same stressor's will be present as last year.

You also said:

From wiki link:

I saw a show recently where a physicist, I am not sure of his name, who may have authored this paper: Extreme Ocean Waves, used non-linear methods (schrodinger equation) to predict Rogue waves that up to then was thought impossible, and since proved to be true. I scanned the abstract briefly and it appears that one of our PF members contributed in some way contributed to this paper (Hans de Vries).

My point is: can similar models be created then used within the brain to predict the onset of the brain waves event or events that in some way mimic rogue ocean wave behavior in the brain, (with a rogue wave as a triggering event) which in turn lead to petite or Tonic–clonic seizures. If so, then can monitoring devices including stimulation sensors act to intervene before a seizure occurs ? I have to believe it could be possible, in part by consulting experts in rogue wave behavior.

Rhody...
First, I'm glad that this young woman has found some relief from what can really be a terrible burden, and that you and her friends are going to enjoy some fun in the sun. I am going to read that paper, and I find it amazing that the Schrodinger equation can predict rogue ocean waves... that is just... amazing. I don't see why, given the proper insight and hard work that similar strides could not be made for the brain. The propagation of that storm of activity has to move from neuron to neuron, just as a wave in the ocean must move from water molecule to molecule. I'm seeing a friend tomorrow who is deeply into the realm of brain imaging, and I'm going to run this by him.

If you have this event preceded by some kind of aura, prediction is of more than academic interest, as the notion of a neurological pacemaker (not of the "Terminal Man" type!) could become a practical reality. I have to think about this, and do some reading, first being the paper you've provided. Once again Rhody, you have put some very interesting thoughts and material to back them on the table.
Nicolas001
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#97
Oct25-10, 03:14 AM
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There has been a lot of debate about considering Asperger’s as a form of Autism. Asperger's is a type of autism, but without many of the debilitating symptoms. A child with autistic will show severe lapses in the development of language. Whereas in Asperger's syndrome language skills are usually not affected at all and in fact can be above average. Children with Asperger's are sometimes referred to as having 'high functioning autism'.
Andre
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Nov12-10, 11:23 AM
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Stumbling upon this thread, it occurs to me that I had several distinct Asperger traits at young age, but nowadays it seems that only one negative one is remaining and several positive ones (good albeit selective -visual- memory and visual, flexible thinking).

I tried a few tests to find average and neurotypical scores. So do I have it or not?

Why not try these?

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/the-bro...phenotype-test

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

http://eqsq.com/eq-sq-tests/

http://www.queendom.com/tests/access...idRegTest=1121
(my EQ is 113 )

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm

http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx

http://www.faceblind.org/facetests/f...cfmt_intro.php

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
Simon01
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#99
Nov22-10, 07:37 AM
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Autism and Aspergers are very similar but they are still characterized as two separate disorders. Autism causes include a variety of genetic and environmental factors. A child with Aspergers Disorder has a milder form of autism. These two disorders are found in the larger category named Autistic Spectrum Disorders.
Haley
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#100
Nov23-10, 06:20 PM
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Someone was saying that high functioning autistics don't try socializing as much as aspergers individuals? I was just thinking about personality traits. Wouldn't that play into an individuals differences between autistic people and such? Like, introversion and extroversion and shyness?
misnderstudge
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#101
Jan4-11, 09:34 PM
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i am not an expert at all, but my brother has aspergers and the way i would describe it is, if you take someone who is blind no vision at all and never had, and someone with 6/6 vison. a blind being autism and 6/6 being aspergers. 6/6 they can see the world they can see out side there small bubble but not like someone with 20 20. it is hard to get around talk about themselves get help and so on while a blind person cant make sense of the world at all really they need help from a dog a carer or whatever not sure if that makes sense so i do agree with it. the help you give is different when i worked in care before i became a EMT, what i would do when i met someone for the first time, i would speck to them as a "normal" person and see there reaction, it is the best way to talk to sufferers. don't speck to them as a child until you can see plainly the have the mental age of a child it can be frustrating for them if you do and make them very uneasy
B220
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#102
Dec20-12, 06:59 PM
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I think there are still way too many misconceptions about Autisic Spectrum Disorders. Too many falsehoods being spread around as facts and too many generalizations for a "spectrum" of the disorders.

I think aspergers is considered autism because they both display key symptoms, and people with aspergers are affected differently, one person may just display bits and pieces of social blindness while another may not even make eye contact their whole life.

I think its just a process of understanding the two, things change as we learn more about it.

but I think I remembering somewhere about researcher decrypting the autism genome and both aspergers and autism share the same deletions and alterations in key sections of the DNA.
B220
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#103
Dec20-12, 07:01 PM
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Quote Quote by misnderstudge View Post
i am not an expert at all, but my brother has aspergers and the way i would describe it is, if you take someone who is blind no vision at all and never had, and someone with 6/6 vison. a blind being autism and 6/6 being aspergers. 6/6 they can see the world they can see out side there small bubble but not like someone with 20 20. it is hard to get around talk about themselves get help and so on while a blind person cant make sense of the world at all really they need help from a dog a carer or whatever not sure if that makes sense so i do agree with it. the help you give is different when i worked in care before i became a EMT, what i would do when i met someone for the first time, i would speck to them as a "normal" person and see there reaction, it is the best way to talk to sufferers. don't speck to them as a child until you can see plainly the have the mental age of a child it can be frustrating for them if you do and make them very uneasy
Yeah I dont like it when people talk to me like I am unintelligent. LOL most people with autism have above average intelligence... they may take you talking to them as a child like an insult... just like anyone else would.
B220
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#104
Dec20-12, 07:03 PM
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Quote Quote by Haley View Post
Someone was saying that high functioning autistics don't try socializing as much as aspergers individuals? I was just thinking about personality traits. Wouldn't that play into an individuals differences between autistic people and such? Like, introversion and extroversion and shyness?

I dont think personality types play into autism... but i guess thats why its considered a spectrum since autism is displayed rather differently among individuals who have it.

the only time personality is taken into consideration would be when the personality is disruptive and it would then be categorized as a personality disorder.


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