Free Speech vs Hate Speech

DR13

So I dont know if many of you know but a few days back there was a teacher suspended from a school in Howell, Michigan for kicking two kids out of class. One of them was wearing a confederate belt buckle. The school is in an area that used to be a central point for the KKK as recent as the 80s so the teacher wanted the student to remove it for sensitivity's sake. Well, it didn't quite end there. The student with the belt buckle and one of his friends argued that he should not have to remove it because he thought it was no different than a recent event at the school where kids wore purple to raise awareness of anti-gay bullying. The local union says the student also made "inappropriate and offensive statements regarding gay students."

Here is an article on it. And in the article there is a video of a 14 year old gay student who gives a speech on the issue: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...pended-teacher

So what do you guys think? I think that the teacher should not have been suspended. First off, these kids were obviously causing a disruption in class. I have seen kids being sent out for much worse. It is not like the teacher hit the kids. He didnt even try to suspend them or take further action. He just kicked them out. A teacher should have the right to manage his own classroom. Also, more on the point of the issue, I dont have a problem with a teacher getting mad at kids for promoting a way of thought that is clearly immoral. It is not like the student was wearing the belt buckle as a symbol of southern pride (again, this happened in Michigan) he was wearing it to make an offensive statement. To offer some proof to you that this was meant as an offensize statement here is a quote from the article, "Two years ago, a group of students were investigated by the Department of Justice for starting a Facebook group that used the Confederate flag as its profile photo and featured hate speech. Two students were suspended." Schools should be safe havens from bullying and abuse.

G037H3

Hate speech doesn't exist.

End of story. :)

it's a belt buckle, if people can't handle a belt buckle, they need to grow up

maybe the student has a preference for state power over federalism

saying something isn't assaulting someone

harassing someone is different, but calmly saying something or defending yourself verbally is not harassment

Evo

Federal Appeals court has ruled against displaying confederate symbols on school grounds.

http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c....02-14931.html

DR13

1. I dont know how you can say hate speech doesnt exist. That is being extremely naieve. Look at neo nazis. I dont think anyone can deny that they exhibit hate speech (whether or not the hate speech should be allowed is a different debate, but it obviosly exists).
2. It is not that people cant handle the belt buckle it is that the belt buckle is a symbol of hatred and oppression towards certain groups.
3. Really? You think that this student who was saying hateful things towards gays was wearing the belt buckle to show a preference for state power over federalism? Stop being intentially dumb (sorry, I know dumb isnt a good word but I cant think of another one right now).
4. When did I say anything about assaulting people? And yes, harassment is different but are you saying that it should be allowed in schools? Kids should feel safe and welcomed in school. Not fearful of their health.
5. These kids were not calmly defending themselves. They were causing a disturbance in the class by shouting homophobic remarks.

Then I wonder how they can suspend the teacher. Hopefully the union finds this ruling.

Evo

If her lawyer isn't brain dead, he should have this. Obviously what the teacher did was right. Previous rulings are in her support. The school acted inappropriately due to ignorance and fear.

JaredJames

You are sadly misguided.

This isn't a case when you can claim "it is only hate speech if you disagree with it". This isn't like discussing a moral value where you can claim it is only moral if you feel it is.

Hate speech is clearly defined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion is wrong is freedom of speech. It is a person voicing their opinion.

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion doctors should be killed is hate speech. You are inciting violence towards the doctors.

There is a distinct difference between voicing your opinion on a subject and spouting how you wish [insert denomination here] should be harmed / killed. You can't rationalise the latter and it has no place in civilised society.

Pattonias

Is stating that wearing a belt-buckle with a confederate flag is similar to a anti-bullying campaign a form of hate speech?

Sounds like the school board is getting a little touchy...

Hepth

What if you are not explicitly inciting violence, but preaching that those who did were right? (Id assume its still hate speech.)
What if you are not explicitly inciting violence, but wear an emblem of those who did to show your support? (I'm not sure, seems like a grey area)

russ_watters

While that may be interesting to discuss from a theoretical perspective, Hepth (and jardenjames), it doesn't really have much to do with this specific case. A student's right to freedom of speech is much more restricted than is typical in other settings. The speech/expression doesn't have to be much more than legitimately disruptive in order to be censurable by the school.

The Confederate Battle Flag is a divisive symbol at best and at worst is overtly racist and rebellious.

1MileCrash

The confederate flag is generally more of a symbol for southern heritage.

russ_watters

That's true only insofar as the "heritage" the flag represents is treason/insurrection and oppression. Recognize, this is the battle flag of the Confederate Army we're talking about - a symbol of the Confederate side of the war itself.

1MileCrash

Simply put, you just have no idea what you're talking about.

Char. Limit

This. While I wouldn't call the belt-buckle hate speech (come on people, it's a belt buckle. They aren't even visible if you're sitting down in a desk...), I would call his offensive comments against gay people hate speech. And also, while he's in school, he needs to obey the rules of the school officials, which includes teachers. This isn't a moral problem at all.

Which is good, because I hate moral problems.

JaredJames

For the record Russ (and possibly Char. Limit), I was simply defining hate speech for Goethe who denied it's existence.

Confederate Flag, Nazi Swastika or any other perceived 'symbol of evil' isn't something I would see as a problem (specific circumstances aside - walking through Poland with a Swastika isn't appropriate for example). I would be moe concerned with the comments about gay people.

Char. Limit

Oh, don't worry about me. I was just using the bold line in Russ's post as a stepping stone to state my own opinion.

JaredJames

As far as I'm concerned, the teacher has authority in the classroom (or anywhere on the school premises).

russ_watters

could you be more specific...?