Register to reply 
The Big Bang singularity  does it have infinite energy? 
Share this thread: 
#1
Nov2710, 08:36 PM

P: 9

Since the big bang singularity has infinite density, gravity, and heat, am I correct to think that it has infinite energy?
Since the black hole singularity also has infinite density, gravity, but has finite heat, does it have infinite energy as well? With regards to the black hole singularity, since it's gravity is infinite, and nothing can escape it, am I correct to think that even if my spaceship has infinite energy and thrust to escape the singularity, I cannot escape it no matter what? If this is the case, then, am I correct to think that the black hole has infinite energy? 


#2
Nov2710, 09:51 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597

We also don't know whether our universe is spatially infinite or spatially finite. Supposing that at some point in the future, somebody figures out a sensible way to define a conserved quantity of energy in GR in a way that applies to all spacetimes, then clearly it would have to be infinite in the case of a spatially infinite universe. 


#3
Nov2710, 11:50 PM

P: 9

Thank you for your reply. In terms of heat energy, am I correct to think that since the big bang singularity has infinite heat, therefore, it's energy in terms of heat is infinite?



#4
Nov2810, 09:04 AM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597

The Big Bang singularity  does it have infinite energy?



#5
Dec410, 10:50 AM

P: 5,632

"Since the big bang singularity has infinite density, gravity, and heat, am I correct to think that it has infinite energy?"
It doesn't necessarily have infinite anything..... Nobody knows what happened AT the big bang singularity.....nor what happens at the center of a black hole. Neither general relativity nor quantum mechanics covers those situations..they are unknowns. When people say "infinite" at the big bang, or at a black hole singularity, they typically mean 'unbounded' or 'divergent'...analogous to the description 1/x, as x approaches zero is "infinite".....nobody has a generally agree upon mathematical description of such singularities. But if the things you mention were infinite, it's reasonable to assume there was infinite energy as well....but that does not make it accurate, just a reasonable guess. Other models of the universe, less popular so far, posit a cyclic (repeating) universe, "ekpyrotic"...which does NOT require infinite anything. Neil Turok and Paul Steinhardt have such a model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe 


#6
Dec510, 11:00 AM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597




#7
Dec810, 10:07 AM

P: 5,632

"Mathematics does not have a problem with functions that have singularities."
Ben, can you provide a source that has either a GR or a quantum solution statement/description for the big bang? If so, what is the order of appearance of the four fundamental forces? Or am I misunderestimating (lol) your comment? My understanding is that neither theory has a mathematical solution that applies to either type singularity, that is, each theory breaks down at such singularities. "The spacetime surrounding a black hole is asymptotically flat, and in that special case there is a definition of massenergy that applies." You don't mean at the singularity, right? How can it be flat with gravity present? I thought I understood your comment from above but now I'm not so sure: "General relativity does not have a definition of energy that applies to every spacetime. What it has is definitions of energy that apply to certain special cases, like stationary spacetimes and asymptotically flat spacetimes. Cosmological solutions are not stationary or asymptotically flat, and there is no known way to define the energy of a cosmological solution." 


#8
Dec810, 12:13 PM

P: 5,632

In rereading my original post, I could have been even more explicit about "infinite anything":
Nothing has so far been encountered by scientific measurement (observation) that has infinite value. Now I guess it's possible the big bang will be an exception, but a good deal of skepticism is required about that at this point as it would be a REALLY unique exception. 


#9
Dec810, 03:21 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597

John Earman, Bangs, crunches, whimpers, and shrieks: singularities and acausalities in relativistic spacetimes, Oxford, 1995 Hawking and Ellis, The large scale structure of spacetime, Cambridge University Press, 1975 


#10
Dec910, 12:15 PM

P: 33

How the Universe, black hole can have a density higher than the Planck density?
How was crossed the Planck wall? Who calculated? 


#11
Dec910, 02:23 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597




#12
Dec1010, 12:18 PM

P: 33

If the highest density inside a black hole is the Planck density:
When the core of the black hole attains the Planck density the core will ‘evaporate’ trough a burst of gamma rays (quasar)! What do you think about it? 


#13
Dec1010, 03:08 PM

P: 5,632

Quasars and radio galaxies are believed to be powered by the same black hole engine....as of 1994, Kip Thorne's excellent BLACK HOLES AND TIME WARPS, also says "It is still possible to explain,,,quasars using...a spinning,magnetized supermassive star...." 


#14
Dec1010, 03:15 PM

P: 5,632

Ben posts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM_energy and note that the vacuum energy density is CONSTANT.....not infinite....so in a finite universe the energy is finite.... 


#15
Dec1010, 04:02 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,597




#16
Dec1110, 12:11 AM

P: 33

What is the minimum mass of a black hole to attain the Planck density?



#17
Dec1110, 12:26 AM

P: 33

The minimum mass of a black hole to attain the Planck density:
I calculated: 10^43 kg 


Register to reply 
Related Discussions  
Where was the big bang singularity?  Cosmology  58  
Big Bang singularity  General Physics  9  
Big bang and singularity  General Physics  13 