UK's Tuition Fee Protest (Images)

cristo

Because your parents could afford to give you £3600 a year, whereas poorer people could not. As you say, you could not have survived without the handout from your parents, so how do you expect poorer people to survive?

My parents were able to give me some money: enough to probably cover tuition and a bit extra. Then I had the full loan, overdraft, credit card. The main way I survived was that I worked full time over the vacations: I remember putting in a 14 day shift one summer.

Are you being serious? Why is it fair to give a poor kid the chance to go to university?

If scholarships existed then that would be a good solution. Unfortunately, British universities don't have surplus funds to sponsor many. As for jobs, I answered that before: there just isn't any time for a job as well as a science/engineering degree.

xxChrisxx

I wasn't at Uni for 12 months. I got 8months * 300. = 2400. They gave me that because it was what was deemed to be acceptable for us when we filled out the loan forms.

See the break down above.

You didn't get a loan for your tuition? How much was this 'bit extra'?
Also I had a job in the summer to keep out of my overdraft (failed horribly in the last year though) and because I didn't want a credit card.

That's standard student stuff.

JaredJames

Correct Chris, this is b*llocks.

Cristo, I do have a loan with them and I can go into great detail regarding the specifics of the terms if you would like.

I assure you cristo, your parents are not involved.

Mech_Engineer

I'm deadly serious.

Based on the definition I gave above, it isn't fair. The poor kid is given an education on the government's dime, while the "rich" kid/family is left to fend for themselves. Unequal opportunity for use of government funds, in addition to the fact that it is likely the "rich" family has paid far more into the system in the first place. You're asking the "rich" to pay for their own education, plus the education of anyone deemed "poor."

So it sounds like the government mandated tuition cap is in fact preventing people with less money from getting higher education unless the government also gives handouts. If they had more money, they could budget to allow for more scholarships!

In fact, this sounds like an argument for universities to set their tuition based on the quality of their services!

There are many examples to the contrary, even if it's only part-time to supplement other sources of income such as loans.

JaredJames

Can people here please differentiate between someone being given a loan for university and someone being given a grant.

Mech, you seem to be the worst here in this regard. Yes, the government do initially front the money for the loans, but once you leave uni you are expected to get a job and pay it back. You end up paying around 5% I believe of your overall wage, so in effect you are paying an increased tax rate until the loan is repaid.

It isn't simply a government handout (although for 'lesser' degrees it can become that).

JaredJames

Not true.

Point 1, as per my above post.

Point 2, everyone can get the tuition fee loan regardless of parental income. It is the cost of living loan which is affected by parental income.

Under the current system, you are expected to pay towards your child's university living costs if you earn above a certain amount. Which I do think is unfair.

cristo

So, seemingly, they gave you the amount that the government would give a student whose parents could not afford it!

Tuition fee loans are a recent thing, they did not exist when I went to university. I can't remember exact amounts, since it was a long time since undergrad, but it wasn't much. Anyway, my financial situation is hardly the topic of this thread!

Your parents sign the form agreeing for you to obtain the loan, therefore they are involved.

JaredJames

Nope, they didn't.

I and only I sign the loan agreement.

The only document they sign is to declare that their income figures provided are accurate and true and if required they can provide evidence to back it up.

xxChrisxx

If you look back at what I have actually written in other posts. I AGREE WITH GIVING MAINTENANCE GRANTS. As that's fair as it enables les well off students to go and survive at Uni.

Capped and bolded just so you don't miss it.

I do not agree with giving people a tuition grant when it's a 100% loan for everyone else, as it's paid for when the student gets a job. As they are competing for the same pay and jobs as me. Yet they are in a better position year on year as they have less loan and therefore less interest.

They are not guarantors though. Your parents are there for means testing only. Which is the stupid thing, it's the students loan. Yet it's means tested...

cristo

This is going round in circles now, so I'm going to drop out of the discussion after one last point:

In this thread we are not talking about the US, where it is perhaps possible to have a part time job. University is a full-time endeavour, I remember in one of my first welcome talks the person giving it admitted this, saying that the number of hours you are expected to work is far above the EU legal working week. Would you tell someone who worked full-time, and did overtime, that he should take on a part-time job on the side? No.

JaredJames

I only signed my loan agreement a few months back, they don't sign any document regarding the loan itself aside from providing income details.

If people don't accept this, so be it, but that doesn't change things. Aside from the means testing, your parents have no connection to your student loan in anyway (unless you bring taxes into it).

Mech_Engineer

So then we're back to the original question- does the tuition cap actually help students? It seems to me it limits a university's resources and lowers the academic bar...

You mentioned much earlier in this thread that I would be surprised at what money can do to get someone into a university (specifically a rich kid with less than perfect academics); what did you mean by that?

Ok well at least they're made to pay the loan back...

Mech_Engineer

It has been claimed that it isn't "fair" for rich people to have a better chance to pay for their kids' to college. Being that wealth (usually) has a direct correlation to effort, and in the academic world grades are usually correlated to effort, is it "fair" for straight-A students to be more likely to get into college than straight-C students?

On the one hand academic accomplishment is defended and rewarded, but on the other economic success is looked down upon...

Kurdt

The fact of the matter is that the UK has always had a socialist approach to higher education whether you agree with it or not. The fundamental matter is that most students disagree with the digression from the socialist policies of the past. This whole thread is getting bogged down in the minutiae of international ideaology.

Mech_Engineer

What should we be discussing then?

Mech_Engineer

So, has anything happened with this in the last few weeks? Are the tuitions going to be raised? Has anyone studied the projected consequences of the raise?

JaredJames

Well the vote passed, the fees are being raised but I don't think it kicks in for three years.