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In E=mc2, Why C?

by Mileman10
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Mileman10
#1
Jan6-11, 04:57 PM
P: 6
Basic Question:

Of the infinite number of other values which could have been the multiplier in E=mc2, it surely cannot be a coincidence that the value of the speed of light squared was the number. So why c?

Ted
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DaleSpam
#2
Jan6-11, 05:07 PM
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Hi Mileman10, welcome to PF!

What other combination of dimensionful universal constants could you use to get dimensions of L/T?
Mileman10
#3
Jan6-11, 05:56 PM
P: 6
Thanks for the reply, but to me, your answer just begs the question.

And, (big disclosure here), I'm just an interested novice, trying to understand things conceptually, if that's possible.

In my college years, I studied Greek at Oxford, and was privileged to play chess once with Paul Dirac. (He won.) He explained basic stellar evolution in an hour, and was so clear and simple even I could get it.

That's what I was hoping for here. So, please, if possible, keep it basic.

Thanks,

Ted

Doc Al
#4
Jan6-11, 06:03 PM
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In E=mc2, Why C?

Quote Quote by Mileman10 View Post
Thanks for the reply, but to me, your answer just begs the question.
Why do you say that? I think it was a reasonable answer.

Do you realize that the speed of light plays a special role in relativity? Assuming you do, is it so surprising that c appears in many of the equations of relativity, including this one?
DaleSpam
#5
Jan6-11, 06:15 PM
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OK, let me try again.

We are looking for a universal factor which converts a mass into an energy. So just by looking at the units we know that the factor that we are looking for must have units of L/T. So we look at the universal constants (e.g. c, G, h, etc.) and see how we can compose a factor with the right units of L/T. There are only a small number of such constants so we quickly find that the only way to do so is to use c.

So the c should be completely clear just from dimensional considerations. What is not obvious is why it is 1c instead of 0.5c or something else. But for some reason nobody ever asks about the subtle question and everyone focuses on the obvious question.
Mileman10
#6
Jan6-11, 06:48 PM
P: 6
I appreciate your explanations, but on a very basic level, c is just a very large number, and c squared even more so.

Forgetting desired units for the moment, this large number is most often used in simple discussions of the power of atomic fusion to explain how a pea-sized amount of Uranium could level Hiroshima, for example. The potential energy in even tiny amounts of matter is enormous, by a factor of c2.

Please explain, why it is that particular factor, and not a google, for example.

Ted
DaleSpam
#7
Jan6-11, 07:00 PM
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Quote Quote by Mileman10 View Post
I appreciate your explanations, but on a very basic level, c is just a very large number, and c squared even more so.
No, c is not just a very large number. In fact, when doing relativity most of the time we use units where c=1. The actual numerical value of c is not very relevant and is completely arbitrary since we can set it to any number we wish simply by choosing our units appropriately.

The important thing about c is not its numerical value, but its units, and the fact that it is frame invariant, finite, and isotropic.
Mileman10
#8
Jan6-11, 08:24 PM
P: 6
OK, I think I'm beginning to follow, a little.

So is it still accurate to say that "Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared", or is this technically incorrect?
DaleSpam
#9
Jan6-11, 08:32 PM
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Yes, that is accurate.
Mileman10
#10
Jan6-11, 08:36 PM
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Quote Quote by DaleSpam View Post
Yes, that is accurate.
Thank you, sir, for your patient help.

Ted
K^2
#11
Jan7-11, 07:16 AM
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Again, one has to be very careful about rest mass vs inertial mass. E = mc holds if m is the inertial mass, but the symbol m is rarely used for it in relativity. For object in motion, a better equation is E = pc + (mc). Here, m is the rest mass of the object, and p is momentum of the object. Note that this equation gives correct energy even for massless particles, such as light.
ChrisJackson
#12
Feb9-12, 06:34 PM
P: 4
Quote Quote by Mileman10 View Post
Basic Question:

Of the infinite number of other values which could have been the multiplier in E=mc2, it surely cannot be a coincidence that the value of the speed of light squared was the number. So why c?

Ted

Piggybacking off Ted's question, why not just say that the equation is E=ML? [ Where L = kinetic energy in light MV^2 with no M]

The equation E= MC^2 is solving for total energy in a quantity of matter and since light is weightless, Kinetic energy in light is simply its velocity, no? What is the difference? Are we really just parsing terms?

The implication is that matter isn’t simply energy like Einstein said. Matter is a specific type of energy, its just light in another form. It is bound up and tied in loops or knots or whatever. I can see why Einstein might not want to make that claim. It sounds outrageous and maybe a little unscientific. Is that the reason we stick to C^2 or am I off base?

How much energy is in one Kilogram of matter?
E=MC^2 => E =C^2 => E= the amount of energy in light

Summary: The total amount of energy in a particular bit of matter is just a question of how much light is wrapped up in the matter.. The answer is the quantity of matter multiplied by energy of light (C^2)

Is there something I am missing here? If light were the basic building block of matter, it would come as no surprise that C^2 keeps popping up all over the place.
Matterwave
#13
Feb9-12, 06:43 PM
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What's L in that equation of yours?

You are getting a lot of the basics of physics wrong. Try reading some faqs or something. The equation E=mc^2 does not read like "energy is equal to matter times light squared". A statement such as that makes no sense.
Drakkith
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Feb9-12, 07:03 PM
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Quote Quote by ChrisJackson View Post
Piggybacking off Ted's question, why not just say that the equation is E=ML? The equation is solving for total energy in a quantity of matter and since light is weightless, its energy reduces to its velocity, no? What is the difference? Are we really just parsing terms?
We don't make a unit equal to C^2 because the value C is a constant and appears in more than one place. It makes it much easier to use it squared or whatnot instead of making a new term in a couple of equations.

Also, E=MC^2 is not useful for light as it has no mass. E = pc + (mc) is actually the full equation. We simplify it to E=MC^2 to convert the invariant mass of an object to energy. In the full equation you would still have to square whatever you set C^2 equal to, so we can just use C and square it and it will be easier.
Agerhell
#15
Feb9-12, 07:14 PM
P: 152
I think that Mileman10 comes up with a very good question that deserves a better answer. Perhaps someone has a link to the original paper where Einstein is supposed to have come up with this relation?

Regarding the energy containment in a kilogram of matter it is also dependent on the gravitational field. A one kilogram steel ball at rest placed very close to the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole should contain a lot less energy than the same steel ball placed on earth right?
ChrisJackson
#16
Feb9-12, 07:19 PM
P: 4
Quote Quote by Matterwave View Post
What's L in that equation of yours?

You are getting a lot of the basics of physics wrong. Try reading some faqs or something. The equation E=mc^2 does not read like "energy is equal to matter times light squared". A statement such as that makes no sense.
Thanks for the response. I didn't say "energy is equal to matter times light squared". I said that it seems like E=MC^2 is similar to Energy = (the amount of matter) ( the amount of energy in light) and that the amount of energy in light is equal to the kinetic energy of light. I guess it would be fair to say that the kinetic energy of light is 0 since Ke = mv^2 would be a large number multiplied by 0.
Matterwave
#17
Feb9-12, 07:22 PM
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c^2 is by no means some measure of "amount of energy in light". The energy of a single photon is given by E=hf where f is the frequency and h is the planck's constant. It is also E=pc. c^2 doesn't even have units of energy.

All of light's energy is kinetic. It has no rest energy.
questionpost
#18
Feb9-12, 07:23 PM
P: 198
Why does it use c? Is it because at that speed matter would have to be equivalent to energy in order to travel that speed?


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