College Isn't For Everyone

Pengwuino

That's saying something.

elfboy

The smartest man in the world supposedly didn't finish college

Vanadium 50

Since there is no consensus on who the smartest man in the world is, such a statement is almost meaningless.

Pengwuino

I finished college

twofish-quant

The fact that Harvard people saying the obvious has credibility is why people want to go to Harvard.

If you can create a path by which someone going to vocational school ends up being President or CEO of a company giving orders to Harvard graduates, then people will go through route. But it's not hard to see why people aren't enthusiastic about making decisions which will cause them to forever take orders from Harvard graduates.

Harvard could make vocational school a lot more attractive if the MBA programs and the undergraduate programs admit even a small fraction (say 5%) of their incoming class from people that went through vocational school. Otherwise, you are forcing people to put themselves into a lower class, and it's not surprising when people refuse to do so.

twofish-quant

Because it tends to be true.

twofish-quant

Which is why I think MIT should figure out a way of boosting enrollment by a factor of 10 or 100. (seriously)

The problem with trade/technical schools is that you will never make them attractive if you have a situation in which people that go to technical schools are taking orders from people that went to Harvard. If you change the perception of technical schools so that people think MIT when they think "technical institute" then you might be able to change things.

twofish-quant

And as long as the plumbers are the people giving the orders to the philosophers, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with a system that creates a Plato-like world of philosopher-kings, and I worry that the Harvard study is pushing things toward that world.

If Harvard really wants to make a difference, they could admit some plumbers to their MBA program.

Also, I'm not sure it will work in the United States, since a lot of people ended up in the US precisely because they where plumbers in Europe that couldn't get anywhere.

chiro

Who is this smart man you refer to? Name?

twofish-quant

One of the findings of the report is that most jobs today require some post-secondary education. So if you define "college" broadly to include two-year community colleges, then yes, college is pretty essential.

The other thing is that the apprenticeship model is something that most engineering schools use. After the first two years, you are highly encouraged to get an internship somewhere.

chiro

Most professions worth their salt follow this model, and I would hate to know a professional body out there that doesn't require an apprenticeship or internship as a requirement of obtaining accreditation.

G01

I've met plumbers/electricians who do quite well for themselves. Also, the people running plumbing and electrician firms tend to be trained as plumbers/electricians. They aren't usually Harvard MBA's. So, I don't know what you mean by "taking orders from Harvard graduates."

twofish-quant

I'm thinking about being on the committees that generate these sorts of reports. One thing that I found pretty striking was on the committee of people talking about vocational education, there didn't seem to be anyone that was a plumber or electrician.

Also there did seem to be a major problem with the report. If it is the case that people are failing out of four year colleges because they are unable to meet general education requirements, then I'm not sure how they are going to make it through a two year vocational program.

G01

OK, I see your point.

Fair enough. The initial point still stands, though. If these people are unable to meet general education requirements then there are only a few possible problems:

1. College is not for them.

2. They have had poor secondary education. (Given the state of of US public schools, this is quite possibly the case.)

So the question is:

The students who are not thriving in college, are they:

1. not cut out for any skilled career, vocational or college trained?

2. college able, but just poorly prepared for college/

3. vocation able, but just poorly prepared for vocational school?

4. a mix 2 and 3?

Shaun_W

I quite often talk to the mature students at my university, and every single one of them who is doing their first degree is there because there was a glass ceiling in effect at their work where no-one without an honours degree could get promoted above a certain level. And this certain level was fairly low. Those with degrees were going straight to the management level, giving out orders to those who had the years and years of experience. I guess that hacked them off a little, too. If I was in my late twenties or thirties and had been in a job for years I also wouldn't like 21 year olds with no experience making the orders. But that's life and I guess the system is fairly effective in keeping social mobility down.

So it's fairly obvious why parents really, really push their children to get a degree. Because without it, unless they are a one in a million entrepreneur or something, they aren't going to amount to much without it.

Of course, the plumbers and electricians might have the last laugh when everyone else's jobs are outsourced.

Fizex

But if they really don't care about college then there is no point for parents to push them. They don't really know the benefits of college and won't do well because they aren't motivated enough. If they're happy being plumbers or ditch diggers then let them be. Just ask mathwonk.

twofish-quant

The problem is that plumbers and ditch diggers require a large amount of skill and even low/no-skill jobs require a lot of motivation (probably more so than being a college freshman). If you aren't motivated enough to go to college, you just are not going to get a job digging ditches or doing plumbing. If you miss a class, no one cares, but if you miss a construction or plumbing appointment than really bad things happen.

Also plumbing requires a fair amount of skill, and most ditch digging today involves power equipment which can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.