Libya: Evolving Civil War

*Proton Soup*

Quote by nismaratwork

...Right... what's your point?

the point is that the failed colony argument is irrelevant. you're not interested in the fate of Libya because it is a failed colony.

russ_watters

You're not addressing the issue and are offering a diversion as if it means something: the point of the "failed colony" argument is, as my mother used to put it when I was a little kid: "he who makes mess cleans mess".

The fact that Europe made a lot of messes doesn't make those messes any less their responsibility than if they had made only a few messes.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Proton Soup

the point is that the failed colony argument is irrelevant. you're not interested in the fate of Libya because it is a failed colony.

What? No... I'm interested because the mess there has been aided and abetted by (primarily) the EU. I'm also intersted because these other failed colonies are following a similar model; that should interest you.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by russ_watters

You're not addressing the issue and are offering a diversion as if it means something: the point of the "failed colony" argument is, as my mother used to put it when I was a little kid: "he who makes mess cleans mess".

The fact that Europe made a lot of messes doesn't make those messes any less their responsibility than if they had made only a few messes.

Yes... this is what I'm saying, thank you.

*Proton Soup*

Quote by russ_watters

You're not addressing the issue and are offering a diversion as if it means something: the point of the "failed colony" argument is, as my mother used to put it when I was a little kid: "he who makes mess cleans mess".

The fact that Europe made a lot of messes doesn't make those messes any less their responsibility than if they had made only a few messes.

i think it is better that we stand back and give this a chance to resolve itself. if we go in, then we are choosing sides, and choosing the next government. and that taints the legitimacy of that government. the new government then risks being seen as another US or european puppet. and when the people have grievances again, they will have reason to direct those grievances towards us. this is a cycle we need to have broken.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Proton Soup

i think it is better that we stand back and give this a chance to resolve itself. if we go in, then we are choosing sides, and choosing the next government. and that taints the legitimacy of that government. the new government then risks being seen as another US or european puppet. and when the people have grievances again, they will have reason to direct those grievances towards us. this is a cycle we need to have broken.

What, not enough dead yet? I'm ready to allow the EU to pick up their mess and stabilize this critical region. It seems like the right thing to do, it's what is being asked of them, and in addition to colonialism.. you bought most of their oil.

Time to pay the piper.

Gokul43201

Quote by nismaratwork

What, not enough dead yet?

Isn't that just the kind of short-term, knee-jerk thinking that needs to be avoided? How many dead constitutes "enough"? How many more will die if a hasty intervention leads to further long term instability? Are there other (less interventionist) ways to help stanch the killing?

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Gokul43201

Isn't that just the kind of short-term, knee-jerk thinking that needs to be avoided? How many dead constitutes "enough"? How many more will die if a hasty intervention leads to further long term instability? Are there other (less interventionist) ways to help stanch the killing?

Yes in fact, there is a continuum between invasion, NFZs, DMZs, and using NATO assets to attempt to discourage bombings.

It's not being discussed here, AFAICT, because few of you realize that, or really care to get into such detail. Those of us who do, already have for the most part, or assume that the rest of you know.

edit: I should clarify: "not enough dead yet"... in Africa: We let Rwanda happen, and The Sudan, and the DRC, we're pretty passive about The Côte d'Ivoire, and France was kind enough to keep Baby Doc fresh for Haiti.

And more. Millions... and the EU with a history of appeasement.

Gokul43201

Quote by nismaratwork

Yes in fact, there is a continuum between invasion, NFZs, DMZs, and using NATO assets to attempt to discourage bombings.

Do you believe this list spans the extremities of the what-to-do continuum?

*Proton Soup*

Quote by nismaratwork

What, not enough dead yet? I'm ready to allow the EU to pick up their mess and stabilize this critical region. It seems like the right thing to do, it's what is being asked of them, and in addition to colonialism.. you bought most of their oil.

Time to pay the piper.

this is why i brought up the other colonies in africa. we had a full-scale genocide in Rwanda. and despite even having a few blue helmets stationed there, no one lifted a finger to help the Tutsis. did we go in and fix Sudan? no, i don't think we did. this "right thing to do" argument never materializes when it involves countries that no longer have resources that are important to us. so it is a fake argument and it is disingenuous. don't pretend that we are helping them when our only interest here is to re-establish our grip on "our" oil.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Gokul43201

Do you believe this list spans the extremities of the what-to-do continuum?

Not even close.

edit: True extremes:

Nuclear bombardment -> Total passivity.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Proton Soup

this is why i brought up the other colonies in africa. we had a full-scale genocide in Rwanda. and despite even having a few blue helmets stationed there, no one lifted a finger to help the Tutsis. did we go in and fix Sudan? no, i don't think we did. this "right thing to do" argument never materializes when it involves countries that no longer have resources that are important to us. so it is a fake argument and it is disingenuous. don't pretend that we are helping them when our only interest here is to re-establish our grip on "our" oil.

Yeah... this is why I'm advocating a different approach.

*Proton Soup*

Quote by nismaratwork

Yeah... this is why I'm advocating a different approach.

OK, so do you think Libya is the worst humanitarian crisis in the world now? i really don't know. maybe it is, but it would be nice to see some kind of triage system set in place. then we could break the cycle of only getting excited about crises that also involve assets.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Proton Soup

OK, so do you think Libya is the worst humanitarian crisis in the world now? i really don't know. maybe it is, but it would be nice to see some kind of triage system set in place. then we could break the cycle of only getting excited about crises that also involve assets.

By no means do I think it's the worst, nor do I see that as an excuse. I'd add.. most humanitarian crises aren't so easily adressed as a NATO air-blockade.

*Proton Soup*

Quote by nismaratwork

By no means do I think it's the worst, nor do I see that as an excuse. I'd add.. most humanitarian crises aren't so easily adressed as a NATO air-blockade.

i'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with Russ that you will just be making it worse.

*nismaratwork*

Quote by Proton Soup

i'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with Russ that you will just be making it worse.

Well, I can't say that you're wrong, you might be right after all. I have no special knowledge here, so I'm just expressing my frusteration, and my beliefs. I'm aware of the potential for blowback, but I think that's coming no matter what we do.

Still, who knows...

*Proton Soup*

Quote by nismaratwork

Well, I can't say that you're wrong, you might be right after all. I have no special knowledge here, so I'm just expressing my frusteration, and my beliefs. I'm aware of the potential for blowback, but I think that's coming no matter what we do.

Still, who knows...

you never know what sorts of things may be going on in the background. rebels may already have assistance from various sources.

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russ_watters Mentor	You're not addressing the issue and are offering a diversion as if it means something: the point of the "failed colony" argument is, as my mother used to put it when I was a little kid: "he who makes mess cleans mess". The fact that Europe made a lot of messes doesn't make those messes any less their responsibility than if they had made only a few messes.