8.9 earthquake in Japan: tsunami warnings


by Lacy33
Tags: japan earthquake, japan nuclear, japan tsunami, meltdown, nuclear
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#127
Mar12-11, 09:24 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#128
Mar12-11, 09:34 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
2011 03 12 Breaking News, Fears of nuclear meltdown after plant blast in Japan, Fukushima.

Cham Dallas, Professor, University of Georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOnZHny4d64
Lacy33
Lacy33 is offline
#129
Mar12-11, 09:36 AM
P: 335
Quote Quote by Astronuc View Post
They will try to get sufficient cooling water into containment to minimize damage to the core and pressure vessel. They might flood containment, but not submerge the plant.

Beyond that, it is difficult to give a reasonable or informed explanation because I/we don't know the specific details regarding that status of the core, fuel, containment, or the specifics of how they are cooling the reactor. I don't see any value in speculation.
I understand your not wanting to speculate. This is not a news station and you have that luxury.
I did not mean that anyone should submerge the plant, I meant what if it was hit with a wall of water hence submerged and can that plant be shaken down and and if so what mag earthquake would it take to shake down that or any new plant? Thank you.
Astronuc
Astronuc is offline
#130
Mar12-11, 09:53 AM
Admin
Astronuc's Avatar
P: 21,628
Quote Quote by Lacy33 View Post
I understand your not wanting to speculate. This is not a news station and you have that luxury.
I did not mean that anyone should submerge the plant, I meant what if it was hit with a wall of water hence submerged and can that plant be shaken down and and if so what mag earthquake would it take to shake down that or any new plant? Thank you.
As far as we know, the plant was not damaged, and the other units (2-6) at the site are intact.

The inner containment (dry well) of unit 1 seems to be mostly intact. The question is what is going on inside the pressure vessel which holds the core. The pressure vessel is enclosed in the dry well.

If there was a hydrogen explosion, then it had to come from hydrogen generated in the core, and that indicates damage (significant oxidation/corrosion) to the Zr alloys (fuel cladding and channels) of the fuel. That could be considered a partial meltdown similar to TMI-2 core damage accident. Then one has to determine how much of the core is damaged.

Also in the core are the control rods which are inserted to keep the reactor shutdown, or subcritical. The control rods are made of stainless steel and contain boron (in form of boron carbide) and possibly hafnium. Boron (B-10) and hafnium are neutron absorbers and the absorb neutrons instead of the fuel. The plant personnel can also add borated water to the core in order to ensure that the damaged core remains subcritical. If there is a partial core meltdown, then that could also displace water such that criticality is not necessarily acheiveable.

At the moment, we have to wait for accurate and reliable information regarding the status of the core and cooling program.
rhody
rhody is offline
#131
Mar12-11, 10:19 AM
PF Gold
rhody's Avatar
P: 765
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
2011 03 12 Breaking News, Fears of nuclear meltdown after plant blast in Japan, Fukushima.

Cham Dallas, Professor, University of Georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOnZHny4d64
Devils,

Nothing personal here, but that CNN news account bugs me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them all, and nothing against you for posting it. I personally don't care for fear mongering without facts to substantiate.

Rhody...
Lacy33
Lacy33 is offline
#132
Mar12-11, 10:21 AM
P: 335
Thank you Astro, This has been very interesting and thank you for explaining this to us. We will just continue to watch with you, but now we understand what is going on. ... More than we did.
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#133
Mar12-11, 10:23 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
Quote Quote by rhody View Post
Devils,

Nothing personal here, but that CNN news account bugs me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them all, and nothing against you for posting it. I personally don't care for fear mongering without facts to substantiate.

Rhody...
Did you watch the video??
Lacy33
Lacy33 is offline
#134
Mar12-11, 10:41 AM
P: 335
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
Did you watch the video??
DA, I want to share some of my yummy medicine with you.
Then we can both be more calm. Aww,
nismaratwork
nismaratwork is offline
#135
Mar12-11, 10:49 AM
P: 2,281
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
Did you watch the video??
I did DA... I saw a hydrogen explosion, and then some dirty steam and smoke. You have to understand, if the fuel had become exposed we'd be talking Grays and Sieverts (or REMs it seems), not milliREMS. This isn't a good thing, because by some account (not verified) the concrete casing around the #2 reactor was compromised, but it doesn't sound like the... oh hell, what's the word, not sleeve... the inner layer is still intact.

The government is handing out Iodine tabs, and has established a reasonable exclusion zone. This isn't good, but I'm not seeing anything to be hysterical about. Lacy's right... deep breaths man, remember, even if this WERE Chernobyl 2.0, what could you do? Keep your mind clear, your emotions tamped down, and focus on the events as they evolve.

Maybe cesium is leaking, maybe not... we're not going to know much of this right now, unless you're Astronuc or have friend with NEST. We can only hope that Astronuc is wrong, and we're not seing oxidization of the fuel cladding, although I wouldn't bet against him for anything. If this is a TMI-2... it's not going to change because of our fear... even if you're personally at risk.

This is the time to be calm, even detatched, and rely on the most reliable info... nothing else.
rhody
rhody is offline
#136
Mar12-11, 10:49 AM
PF Gold
rhody's Avatar
P: 765
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
Did you watch the video??
Yes, and around 2:45 where the professor says it reach levels approaching three mile island but not Chernobyl may be a fair statement (I am no expert, we need Astro for that), and he didn't address a complete meltdown issue, skirted the question. I guess what bugged me the most was after thinking about it for awhile was, why wasn't CNN putting experts on the air to explain what could be done to contain the heat. Like progress on getting power restored to the cooling systems would have been more appropriate IMHO. This story makes for great ratings, however, this is not the time to try and capitalize on the situation. I broke a promise to myself about stating political views on this forum, which I intend not to repeat.

Rhody...
nismaratwork
nismaratwork is offline
#137
Mar12-11, 10:52 AM
P: 2,281
Quote Quote by Astronuc View Post
As far as we know, the plant was not damaged, and the other units (2-6) at the site are intact.

The inner containment (dry well) of unit 1 seems to be mostly intact. The question is what is going on inside the pressure vessel which holds the core. The pressure vessel is enclosed in the dry well.

If there was a hydrogen explosion, then it had to come from hydrogen generated in the core, and that indicates damage (significant oxidation/corrosion) to the Zr alloys (fuel cladding and channels) of the fuel. That could be considered a partial meltdown similar to TMI-2 core damage accident. Then one has to determine how much of the core is damaged.

Also in the core are the control rods which are inserted to keep the reactor shutdown, or subcritical. The control rods are made of stainless steel and contain boron (in form of boron carbide) and possibly hafnium. Boron (B-10) and hafnium are neutron absorbers and the absorb neutrons instead of the fuel. The plant personnel can also add borated water to the core in order to ensure that the damaged core remains subcritical. If there is a partial core meltdown, then that could also displace water such that criticality is not necessarily acheiveable.

At the moment, we have to wait for accurate and reliable information regarding the status of the core and cooling program.
Is the Borated water (sounds like something Borek might make before bed ) is the neutron poison they flood the reactor with?

I have to say, given how unstable Fukishima is seismically, I'm a bit surprised that they didn't switch to a newer generation reactor. I know you're not convinced that PBR would avoid this, but surely being able to 'scatter' the bed would help in dissipating heat, and slowing the reaction even more than control rods or neutron poisons.
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#138
Mar12-11, 11:35 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
Quote Quote by Lacy33 View Post
DA, I want to share some of my yummy medicine with you.
Then we can both be more calm. Aww,
Sure, I eat anything if this nightmare will just end!

()
nismaratwork
nismaratwork is offline
#139
Mar12-11, 11:37 AM
P: 2,281
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
Sure, I eat anything if this nightmare will just end!

()
*prepares blowdart with xanax and haldol*

You'll feel better in a moment... or you'll drool to death... one or the other! *ffffwwwt*

DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#140
Mar12-11, 11:38 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
Quote Quote by rhody View Post
... I broke a promise to myself about stating political views on this forum, which I intend not to repeat.

Rhody...
Niema problema compañero.

... the funny thing though is that some of Cham Dallas very first words are "... [it] will not be dangerous ... however you cannot overestimate the fear factor ..." and the rest of the video goes along the same lines.


(sorry I just had to do it... )
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#141
Mar12-11, 11:42 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
Quote Quote by nismaratwork View Post
I did DA... I saw a hydrogen explosion, and then some dirty steam and smoke.
No you did not. You watched the wrong video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOnZHny4d64

What’s wrong with you guys? One doesn’t check and the other is talking about the wrong stuff?? Should we all get some of Lacy’s snacks!?


DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#142
Mar12-11, 11:45 AM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642
Quote Quote by nismaratwork View Post
*prepares blowdart with xanax and haldol*

You'll feel better in a moment... or you'll drool to death... one or the other! *ffffwwwt*

Nirvana ...
nismaratwork
nismaratwork is offline
#143
Mar12-11, 11:46 AM
P: 2,281
Quote Quote by DevilsAvocado View Post
No you did not. You watched the wrong video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOnZHny4d64

What’s wrong with you guys? One doesn’t check and the other is talking about the wrong stuff?? Should we all get some of Lacy’s snacks!?


Meh, I actually watched that live... I give a lot of credit to Dallas for not fearmongering, and resisting the anchors later attempts to goad.

I did assume however, and thus I am revealed, caught, my hands red with my sin.

And yes... I'll take a snack please!
DevilsAvocado
DevilsAvocado is offline
#144
Mar12-11, 12:00 PM
PF Gold
DevilsAvocado's Avatar
P: 1,642


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants Nuclear Engineering 14198
Before the ’04 Tsunami, an Earthquake So Violent It Even Shook Gravity General Physics 3
I have a question Magnetar/Earthquake/Tsunami General Discussion 2
Tsunami caused by the earthquake. General Physics 6