Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants


by gmax137
Tags: earthquake, japan, nuclear
razzz
razzz is offline
#2323
Apr1-11, 03:14 AM
P: 205
That unit 3 blast, just was not your run of mill blast. Couple of secondary explosion. Something was atomized or pulverized and sent through a narrow opening to be launched upwards like that. Super heated steam maybe causing the secondary explosions? Or trapped hydrogen beneath the reactor around the doughnut?
jensjakob
jensjakob is offline
#2324
Apr1-11, 03:14 AM
P: 123
Quote Quote by TCups View Post
@Bez999

It looks to me like the fuel rods are in the chute, not the reactor. The lovely blue of the cherenkov radiation doesn't seem to open up any wider than the chute. The gates on the chute to both the SFP and the drywell containment are open, else I don't think you would see the blue color.
I stand corrected.
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2325
Apr1-11, 03:23 AM
P: 468
INFO TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS AND READERS HERE:

Hi all, I just want to let you know that I posted a some new articles on an other thread that, after discussing yesterday with PF Mentor Borek, i created on the Forum.

The link to this new thread is:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...=1#post3222895

This new thread is called The "more political thread" besides "Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants" scientific one and its title should be self explanatory,

but i added a first post to better clarify the goal of this thread in case it would be necessary. It is intended basically to be a place for discussing the "more political" infos around the accident in order to have a place to do it without doing it on this more technical and scientific thread, and I think it's really a good thing to separate the two threads and cross reference them when necessary (please in this case give link to the cross reference post number on each thread).

I posted this morning some new infos, concerning the "dosimeter affair" concerning Tepco (around 180 workers/day without dosimeters, many of them being subcontractors), and search about this subject, i found something that may interest people on this original technical thread (I don't think this element has been reported so far here). This is based on the declaration of one of the 3 workers who was sent to hospital last week with beta burns. I put the extract of the article that i source on the "more political thread" (i'll call it Brother Thread!). Cross reference post is #4 on the Brother Thread (let's adopt the convention that POL#4 will mean post number #4 in the "Brother thread"?)

I'm currently looking for the original Kyodo news article. If somebody finds it let it know.

Kyodo News interviewed one of the workers that was sent to the hospital with Beta Burns last week. It turns out the worker is a sub-sub-contractor. He said the reason they didn’t have protective gear is the fact that TEPCO has a lack of communication with its sub contractors. Tokyo Electric calls its sub-contractors ”associate enterprises.”

The injured worker suggests that the most dangerous work is being forced on the sub-sub-contractors. He claimed lack of supervision, and lack of radiation monitoring for the workers. Also, he says the problem with radiation levels is worse than what’s being reported. Many highly radioactive materials litter the nuclear plant’s compound, after the hydrogen gas explosions. They can not be removed because of their high levels of radiation.

Kyodo News found other sub-contractor employees who are no longer working at the plant. They said their employers begged them to come back to work, even offering 80,000 yen per day. They said no way, not with the amount of radiation there.
So it would indicate that there may have been high radioactive solid debris (not water I mean) spread around on the site at a level that "they couldn't be removed" (i guess with human intervention?).

What would that mean in termes of levels of radiation of this debris but also in terms of origin for this debris?

Feel free to discuss it or on the brother thread (POL thread: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...=1#post3222895 ) depending of the your judgment of what is relevant, and ORIENT people towards this new thread if you think this is necessary based on their post content (to avoid mix up).
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2326
Apr1-11, 04:07 AM
P: 468
To JENSJAKOB:

Could the blast have initiated above the SFP - and something recoiled out of the north side?
That's my feeling when i analyse the video. Know from a mechanical standpoint (I'm a mechanical engineer), a high and strong vertical burst (around 500m high) implies that the energy must be somewhat concentrated and directed in this direction more than on the other directions, like in a gun (the bullet is directed by the metal tubing which resists to the radial force), so to me, this vertical burst means that the energy and the point of ignition has to come from deeper in the structure which to some extent has to resist to orient the flux of ejected material to produce that kind of burst. That's why at first I was thinking about the reactor itself being destroyed and ejected through its containment concrete structure (acting as the tubing of the gun). But with all the analysis of the Hi Res picture, it's not FOR SURE from here that the big burst came from. On the other hand the analysis of videos images that i've posted in the post you cited shows that the Burst initiates more on the North side of the N3 building. To me this would mean that this part ot the building has not been destroyed only laterally and on the top floors but that more SEVERE AND DEEPER damage of the structure can be associated to the fact that we got this big vertical burst.

My other hypothesis would be a secondary (or even tertiary, don't know) explosion from the basement of the reactor building, close to or at the suppression chamber (the Torus), in its NorthWest portion (which is underground). This deep ignition/origin could lead i think to this oriented flux along the containment structure of the pressure vessel, but OUTSIDE OF IT (lateral).



This would imply of course a complete break of the containment structure there (and big lack of containment of radioactivity of course), and also that the highly contamined water of the Torus would be out in the basement... which can also be compatible with what has been found so far (the water in the basement of the turbine building has been found -3 workers injured- in a room just next to the torus room, i repost the drawing showing a cut of the buildings:

Attached Thumbnails
image008.jpg  
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2327
Apr1-11, 04:32 AM
P: 468
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_03.html

Researcher explains how radiation reaches Tokyo

A Japanese researcher explained to NHK how radioactive substances that leaked from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have spread and reached Tokyo and other parts of the Kanto region.

Hiromi Yamazawa, a Professor at Nagoya University graduate school, says that high levels of radiation have reached Kanto at least twice since the nuclear plant accident.

He says the first incidence occurred from March 15th through the 16th. Contaminated air spread widely in Kanto.

The second occurred from the 20th through the 21st.

Contaminated air went south along the coast, and reached Chiba and Tokyo.

The air was then blown northwest to the inland prefecture of Gunma.

Yamazawa says the rain in a broad area of Kanto in the surrounding days deposited radioactive substances in rivers and contaminated water in purification plants in the region.

Yamazawa warns that radiation could more easily flow into Kanto from now to the early summer, due to winds blowing south from Fukushima during these seasons.
AntonL
AntonL is offline
#2328
Apr1-11, 04:42 AM
P: 521
Earthquake intensity report
Quote Quote by TEPCO

This is the record of the earthquake intensity observed at the lowest
basement of the reactor buildings of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power
Station and Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station when the
Tohoku-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake occurred approximately at 2:46pm on March
11th, 2011.

This report also contains Maximum Response Acceleration based on
"Regulatory Guide for Reviewing Seismic Design of Nuclear Power Reactor
Facilities (Revised in 2006)".
We will endeavor to keep collecting as much data as possible and examine
it in more detail.

[Table]
The comparison between Basic Earthquake Ground Motion and the record of
the earthquake intensity observed at the lowest basement of the reactor
buildings of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station and Fukushima Daini
Nuclear Power Station when the Tohoku-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake occurred.


【Reference】
Threshold for reactor scram at each unit(The reactor automatically stops
if the intensity of the quake exceeds the threshold.)

Glossary
Observed Record of Earthquake Intensity
Record that indicates the intensity of an earthquake (Unit: gal)

Regulatory Guide for Reviewing Seismic Design of Nuclear Power Reactor
Facilities
Revised in September 2006 based on the newly accumulated knowledge on
seismology and earthquake engineering and advanced technologies of
seismic design, this is a regulatory guide in reviewing the validity
of the seismic design of nuclear power reactor facilities.

Basic Earthquake Ground Motion Ss
A basic earthquake ground motion in seismic design of facility,
stipulated in Regulatory Guide for Reviewing Seismic Design of Nuclear
Power Reactor Facilities

Maximum Response Acceleration against Basic Earthquake Ground Motion Ss
Assuming Basic Earthquake Ground Motion Ss in the evaluation of the
earthquake-proof safety, this is the Maximum value of the quake of a
building, which is expressed in acceleration.

1 gal = 1 cm/sec2
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2329
Apr1-11, 04:49 AM
P: 468
I post it here because that can have impacts on analyses done on this thread, because it's about "all data on radiation leaked from the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant"...

I won't comment to much, but for sure, scientific analysis can only lead to reliable conclusions IF source data are reliable. Which obviously some of them are not, for various reasons.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_28.html

Program errors force TEPCO to review all data
Tokyo Electric Power Company says it will review all data on radiation leaked from the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, citing errors in a computer program.

The utility says it found errors in the program used to analyze radioactive elements and their levels, after some experts noted that radiation levels of leaked water inside the plant were too high.

The company and the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency say previously released data may have shown the levels of tellurium-129 and molybdenum-99 to be higher than they really were.

But they say that levels of iodine-131, which has a significant impact on humans and the environment, remain unchanged.

Tokyo Electric releases data on radioactivity inside the plant compound and in nearby seawater and soil.
The radioactive substances are believed to be coming from damaged nuclear fuel rods.

The data is crucial for identifying the source of radioactive leaks and assessing their impact on the environment.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has told the company to find out why the errors occurred and to take steps to prevent a recurrence.
Cainnech
Cainnech is offline
#2330
Apr1-11, 05:09 AM
P: 10
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
I'm currently looking for the original Kyodo news article. If somebody finds it let it know.
Hi, I think it must be this article: http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/82005.html
artax
artax is offline
#2331
Apr1-11, 05:12 AM
P: 159
I'm currently fascinated by the high res image (2011-3-30-1-11-12) which shows the Eastern faces of buildings 3 and 4.
It looks like the two remaining panels at the top of building 4 have been sucked in rather than blown out. I guess this is just the consequence of a directional explosion dragging air with it (as the dyson ring fan thing does) but will give clues as to the location and direction of the (or one of the explosions, if we had an accurate 3D model of the building and it's rooms/wall strengths.
I still suspect a vertical hydrogen explosion in the near empty fuel pools, bu then how that damages the pressure vessels I've no idea.
artax
artax is offline
#2332
Apr1-11, 05:15 AM
P: 159
Quote Quote by |Fred View Post
thx artax :)
here is the link to the full res http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-...chi-photos.zip
Sorry from this link. (seventh image in list)

It's very frustrating that they've not released the video of the number 4 explosion.
AntonL
AntonL is offline
#2333
Apr1-11, 05:22 AM
P: 521
Quote Quote by artax View Post
Sorry from this link. (seventh image in list)

It's very frustrating that they've not released the video of the number 4 explosion.
does not exist as it was dark at the time - 6AM
DosEnbier
DosEnbier is offline
#2334
Apr1-11, 05:23 AM
P: 4
@jlduh
http://up.picr.de/6714926jvp.jpg
artax
artax is offline
#2335
Apr1-11, 05:31 AM
P: 159
Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
does not exist as it was dark at the time - 6AM
So wouldn't we see it better!

@Dosenbier, that's unit 3,

What is your point?
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2336
Apr1-11, 05:32 AM
P: 468
Thanks CAINNECH, great first posting!

For further "political" discussion around this, let's transfer to this thread on which i just posted your link:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...=1#post3223014

(see post POL#8)
|Fred
|Fred is offline
#2337
Apr1-11, 05:34 AM
P: 312
Quote Quote by DosEnbier View Post
I dont think so, for me it's rather part of the east wall
artax
artax is offline
#2338
Apr1-11, 05:41 AM
P: 159
In this image the two panels have been sucked inwards.
Attached Thumbnails
aerial-2011-3-30-1-11-12.jpg  
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2339
Apr1-11, 05:43 AM
P: 468
Originally Posted by DosEnbier
@jlduh
http://up.picr.de/6714926jvp.jpg
I dont think so, for me it's rather part of the east wall
Courld you please clarify what you are talking about? Dosenbier and Fred?
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#2340
Apr1-11, 06:00 AM
P: 468
Very interesting ground video Shogun338...

I repost and ask if someone can locate the place shown at 3:43, the car is heading the sea and there is huge damage on the building on the left (panels blasted outwards). Can't figure out where it is based on Hi res aerial pics, should be close to a Turbine building but i don't see such damages on the Hires pics... Then the car turn to the North and again heavy panel damages

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajHeb9kqjuo

Attached Thumbnails
image032.jpg  


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