Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants

zapperzero

What else would the milestone be? Just the passing of time?

MadderDoc

In this case, the big green thing you are highlighting is with little doubt
this grand machine, photographed in its apparently normal sleeping position, west of the equipment pool of unit 3:
gyldengrisgaard.dk/daiichigrab/unit3/f1-21.JPG

This machine, I've been told, is for tightening the head bolts of the reactor in a uniform manner. Talk about special tools. Some spanner, eh? :-)

PS. This machine appears to be the least damaged bit on the deck of unit 3. It doesn't even appear to have been moved much about.

Dmytry

Well, the rowmag said "The evacuation zones were decided based on similar plots,". Reality check: the evacuation zones were circles. It took over a month until evacuation orders became non circular. A month of REMAIN INDOORS orders for god's sake! Do you guys have a slightest idea what a remain indoors instruction does to people after a month? Especially to old and disabled. Note that it was 20..30 km remain indoors ('voluntarily evacuate'), and 20 km evacuate. Note that this is actually larger area under remain indoors order than was evacuated.
I guess you guys are going to think that they were circles such that radiation can't get out of the circle, but that's not how meteorology works period.

rowmag really is example of the reason why government feels free to keep secrecy... a citizen who, in absence of data, would come up with his own explanations along the lines of how correct the government actions were. That is very convenient. Simple lack of specific data becomes effective positive propaganda in such cases.

I'm really surprised there wasn't widespread panic. Everything was done to incite as much panic as they possibly could. Complete with mis-measurements then release of 'corrected' figures an order of magnitude smaller. Complete with 'remain indoors, theres radiation outside'. Pushing the fear of unknown button as hard as possible. Pushing the uncertainty button as hard as possible, too. Really, what they could have possibly done to cause more panic? Release data honestly, with the plume? That'd be a very reassuring thing, to see that this stuff is being calculated. For people outside plume it'd be directly reassuring, the people inside could have been evacuated instead of hanging in uncertainty and 'remaining indoors'.
Sigh. I'd hate to agree with pro nuclear stupid arguments, but this remain indoors order and 'voluntary evacuation' thing could of easily killed more people than radiation did.

SteveElbows

Certainly this machine was noticed by someone on forums in the past and commented on. If memory serves me correctly I think they thought it was the fuel bridge, with a theory that it had gone way up in the air and landed on the other side of the building. Personally I did not buy into that theory, but it is also impossible for me to conclude with 100% certainty that this image shows the bolt tightening equipment rather than the fuel bridge. Both are green, and there is nothing in that video that tells me Im looking at a device which is approximately round in shape.

I think that piece of equipment may also be visible on one of the reactor 4 videos, possibly at an angle due to some floor collapse, I will go and have another look and see, it could easily be something else.

Personally I've been more interesting by the old army helicopter video that appears to show large quantities of steam or smoke coming out of what looks to be the removable concrete walls that sit between the dryer separator pit and the reactor cavity. But really what I have learnt from looking at a variety of videos and pictures is not very much, and does not justify the time I've spent on it.

SteveElbows

There is no way the evacuation was handled appropriately, and Im quite surprised that anybody thinks it was. Specifically, the government were negligent in how they handled the regions slightly outside the evacuation zone to the north west. I will have to try to go back and retrace the exact sequence of events to give a completely accurate picture, but Im sure that data was made available showing that parts of the north west really should be evacuated, and this data was available for quite some time before the Japanese government announced that they would eventually make people evacuate those areas. I will go and try to find more detail now.

Rive

-
- check the attachment of this post - within the limits of our sources MadderDoc can be right about that 'spanner' :-)

But if this 'spanner' is in place then the much heavier FHM should be there somewhere too.

Attached Files

Circular_UFO_crop_comp.zip (257.0 KB, 27 views)

triumph61

Is it right that the last day 27.4. Tepco spray Water at Unit 4 ?
I found no more Press release.

WhoWee

It's hard to imagine what these people are going through.

ascot317

I haven't been in the area, but in other rural areas of Japan, some people still live in houses that aren't exactly tight. Lots of air moving in and out through bad windows and improper insulation. So, wind can easily contaminate an old house. And even if you're in a tight, modern house, keeping windows closed for a month and turning off AC doesn't really work.

It's really tough to "stay indoors" for a long period of time. They had informations on TV on what to do when you have to get out, e.g. wear a jacket, hat and tight shoes, take them off outside before getting into your house(they do that anyway with their shoes), rinse. Combined with the omnipresent medical face masks this might sound alright, therefore keeping people calm.
But without proper measuring equipment it's impossible to determine whether or not you carry particles on your body, which then just might enter your "safe zone".

I wonder if they have "difficult" data on Tokyo. The time following the explosion of #3 and #4 sometimes had south-bound wind.

Evacuating Tokyo is impossible, so they probably wouldn't tell anyone.


Japanese "panic" on a different level, I believe. They're generally much more calm than most other people I know.

Jorge Stolfi

Unfotunately, reactor #1 is quite different from the others. We have some sketchy blueprints of #3's concrete srtucture, without the machinery:

http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXP...lueprint/good/

Reactors #2--#4 are said to have the same basic plan. What we can see through the holes on #3 and #4 seems to agree with the above blueprints. However there may be differences. The entrance on the ground floor, for example, looks different between #3 and #4.

Dmytry

Precisely. Hard to imagine, easy to understate.

I don't think it makes anyone calm to have them go through various steps to avoid a hazard they can't see and can't measure and hazards of which they don't know (but presumably quite hazardous enough if you are told to go through those steps).
I suspect a silent 'panic' where people just remain indoors and avoid going out to the extent when the health effects from that are worse than from radiation. Which is anyhow the case outside plume, where the radiation is not a problem in the first place. Also, see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ZHQ--cK40
keep in mind that this area was also damaged by quake, and some of it, by tsunami. And the supplies are not being delivered because those 'calm' non panicking Japanese, trusting their government, are nonetheless declining to deliver food etc etc to those 'remain indoors' regions. I don't know if that can be described as 'panic', or if we need a Japanese word for it, like tsunami.

|Fred

After a bit of press investigation about Daini's related press releases on the 21th
I'm incline to conclude that Reuter's paper is a source of miss representation of the actual information.


On the 21 april NISA press release is the following
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/i...10422-meti.pdf

And On the 21 april Tepco's press released is the following http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp...1042108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp.../110421e11.pdf
Its an update , but really a no change confirming the cold shutdown since march


yet an other press epic failure ? bit like this one http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tg6gskQW-B...laden-dead.jpg

MadderDoc

I also haven't been able to find announcement of sprayings to that pool since the 27th.

AntonL

@MadderDoc you do not haver to "think it is a measure somewhere in the dry well", we just need to check the equivalent english version of this table to find out it is the temperature in the dry well at the RPV bellows seal. http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/f...110502-2-3.pdf but these are aways a view days late

And yes this temperature has drastically increased and is is also marked with #3 meaning that measurement is under evaluation and may not be correct but this increase even if measurement is faulty should worry tepco.

MadderDoc

Rule number 1 of pixel-twitching: Always look at something from more than one angle.

In unit 3, the bolt screwing machine does appear to be tilted down towards the west, likely because the floor under it has collapsed, and it is now standing on a slope.

triumph61

At 27.4 Tepco sprays. The Water steps 4250 to 6550mm.
Today Water still at 5550mm.
What is going on??

maddog1964

Yes Jorge, I agree with what you are saying and thats why i clairify in the begining that its #1, the process equipment still seems to be the same and in the same general location and (Its is just an assumption based on the lack of information) I should have made that clearer ... I have lousy monitor so its hard to look in the cavities... but have been working on chasing the equipment and pipe (as i do think some of the assumptions i see are inccorect or based as a fact (less so on this site) vs. an opioion.. I have found this site to be one of the more reliable..

My original concept that i was chasing is the contributing factors to the events.... the Containment Vessel does not isolate all the Radioactve Components... ie the question of the "sludge removal" system.. the cleaning/water chemisty system is complex with many systems involved... There has been much past conversation about Rad limits and why they are at certain levels in odd places.. I have been trying to located the equipment that may contain (or have broken open) that coud be the source of the Rad levels in certain places and not necssarly "fuel"....

while looking at the sludge system came across article refenceing the sludge tanks the Hartfod clean up site..(much bigger... not in reactor building) in it talks about "residule heat from the rad in the sludge being able to create Hydogen gas and Nitrous Oxide chemical reations.. (expoosive and flammible) " the sludge tank shown on the blueprint is a flat top.. not a pressure vessel

I am new to this form of communicating and apologize if I have approched it incorrectly...

I have enjoyed your post and was and still hoping that i could get some feed back on the chemistry part of the "secondary piping systems"

also on the Micky Mouse ears... can not see on the monitor very well but would you be so kind as to look and give me your comments..

When looking through the "scaffolding" it looks as though the blue/white can still be seen.. I have been in this busness a long time and can not think of a reason to put a tank on top of scaffold for safety reasons.. But with the clearer pictures you have posted it looks like that the wall is still there and (can you tell if the structure is an angel or tubing shape vs round) and the structure is a frame work that a tank (so not see any flanged ends to be heat exgr) has been mounted on the top and a system was to be installed on the lower half... maybe to feed something in one of the buildings or somewere else .... then the explosion and it just went away... this is just a wild *** guess.. don't see the remains around in after pictures.. the green box that was there looks like a typ weather/explos proof elc/instumention box...

thanks and will try to be more clear in the future... now do you know anything about the chemistry properties of the "sludge" and how hot would it be... or any guess?