Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants

denislaurent

Quote by zapperzero

Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg

Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)

shadowncs

Quote by zapperzero

Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg

From the curvature of the panels in PIC 2 as well as from the position of the FHM in PIC 1 (present in PIC 2 on the right) I'd say those guardrail panels are the top of reactor guard panels (also visible from the other side in PIC 1)

Jim Lagerfeld

Quote by denislaurent

Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)

I'm intrigued, that sure is some shoddy work with the clone stamp! And the comparison with the low-res video-cap from the same spot proves that it is not an honest stitching artifact but rather a shoddy attempt at removing something from the hi-res image.

*Atomfritz*

Quote by zapperzero

Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.

And the trash bags lying around... looks like a messie's home.
A German bakery would be closed if regulators found such a mess at the workplace.

Edit: Look at the end of the rail in the lower left of the image. Looks somehow unusual, rail transiting into concrete seamlessly, making me think of photoshop.
Edit2: Thanks denislaurent for the link, there is even more of strange details that I find somehow suspicious.

Quote by zapperzero

another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.

The concrete (dis)coloration indicates that condensation happens here up to saturation.
To me the crane rails seem thoroughly rusted. I think they will have completely crumbled in a few years if nothing protective is done, making the recovery of the spent fuel using the old crane impossible.
IMO Tepco should grease them with water displacer asap to avoid complicarions like this.

Quote by zapperzero

there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg

I am not sure if soot.
High humidity and discolorations concentrating in lower parts, where main condensation occurs.
Black fungus thrives in the Chernobyl sarcophagus in extremely radioactive areas, why should this be different in Fukushima?
Looking closely, mostly organic surfaces (plastics and paint) seem discolored, and these are preferred by fungi.

timid3000

Quote by denislaurent

Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)

If you look at the video (3:08), you can see that some kind of error occured while taking the picture (look at the screenshots I attached).
The idea of photoshopping a picture they are not mandated to release in the first place sounds weird to me, especially when the "hidden" area seems to only contain a piece of paint that fell off from somewhere.

jmelson

Quote by Atomfritz

And the trash bags lying around... looks like a messie's home.

Oh, come on! This is a building that was subjected to a powerful earthquake,
then a mil-level explosion!

I think they will have completely crumbled in a few years if nothing protective is done, making the recovery of the spent fuel using the old crane impossible.
IMO Tepco should grease them with water displacer asap to avoid complicarions like this.

Any use of the main crane or the FHM is pretty much out of the question.
If the earthquake didn't damage the support rails, the explosion would have.
Unless the rails were tested very thoroughly and re-surveyed by millwrights, the
crane could fall off the rails the first time it was moved, adding major complications
to any recovery. Massive corrosion is probably going to be a problem in the
disassembly of the plant, though, you are right. The Quince displays show
9 C and ~75% RH, which is a bad situation.

Jon

zapperzero

Quote by Atomfritz

Looking closely, mostly organic surfaces (plastics and paint) seem discolored, and these are preferred by fungi.

The panel closest to the camera seems to be missing altogether - which is why I thought fire in the first place.

zapperzero

Quote by jmelson

Oh, come on! This is a building that was subjected to a powerful earthquake,
then a mil-level explosion!
Jon

Excuse me, what explosion would that be? Afaik, there was a blast somewhere in the vicinity of the torus (5 levels down) and the concrete plug of the reactor well seems to be in its place so I don't think the torus breach could have very much bearing on whatever happened to those panels.

Also, this deck is supposed to have remained untouched by humans ever since the accident. I do not understand the boots, but if they are there since the earthquake, well... why would other stuff be strewn about willy-nilly? Remember that unit 2 is the one with the roof still intact.

Rive

Quote by zapperzero

Excuse me, what explosion would that be?

There was no explosion, true: however judged by the survey map of the level there was something coming up around the concrete plug of the reactor, and I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't cold nor careful.

Boots and the pink plastic bags/sheets: as I remember to the pre-accident tour pictures such things are often used during any activities on the top floor - for example for a refueling operation practically the whole site is wrapped up. We don't have any information about what was in progress right before the accident happened.

duccio

Quote by Jim Lagerfeld

I'm intrigued, that sure is some shoddy work with the clone stamp! And the comparison with the low-res video-cap from the same spot proves that it is not an honest stitching artifact but rather a shoddy attempt at removing something from the hi-res image.

As they have released also the unedited video, I doubt there is a big conspiracy plan behind. What I'd bet had happened, is the PR guy/webmaster/poor young engineer responsible for drafting press releases and hand-outs, was told to get 3-4 shots out of the video, clean them up as best as he could and make a pdf out of it. If you notice, exposure, light, color also change in the pictures, that are brighter and more detailed than the video (video is so dark that it's even difficult to spot the boots). Trying to clean up the pictures, he probably overdid here and there

*Atomfritz*

Regarding the strange image distorting/tile duplication which makes the impression of image editing:

I have looked at the video and the image closely trying to find out what could be the reason for this.

Just to save typing I copied my comment on Ex-SKF here:

Now downloaded the video and looked at it closely.
Around 3:10 plus/minus a few seconds there can be taken some more observations.

As Yosaku correctly notes, the image is parted up into 16 tiles, apparently transmitted sequentially, strangely of unequal size (would really like to know the technical reason why the tiles aren't equal-sized).

The image "blacks out" when the radiation counter jumped to about 0.2 sieverts (in 1 meter height? probably then higher near at floor level where the electronics are probably located).

The operator then hastily moved back Quince. I suppose it was a quick reaction to protect Quince 2 from crashing/latching-up because of radiation.

However, what appears strange to me is the discrepancy of the image shown in the video and the high-res image.
But there could be several benign technical explanations for this.
The display on the Quince control panel (showed in the video) is probably a zoomed-down version of the native resolution of the camera image.

But then the question comes up: how came the seamless impression of the duplicate tile which makes the impression of image editing?
If the tile was a simple duplicate as Yosaku assumes, it would be easily recognizable, like a copied-pasted part of the image.

It is probably not that simple.
When you look very carefully at the hires image you get the impression that the lower left tile actually could be sort of averaging overlaying of two tiles.
Technically this could be caused by a line decoder malfunction caused by radiation, leading to two lines being read out simultaneously, mixing/averaging the output.

So I have to retract my suspicion of image editing, as there seems to be nothing of particular importance in the lower-left image tile.

However, one thing can possibly be concluded of this: Quince's electronics radiation resistance probably is around 0.2 sieverts (assuming the radiation counter is located near the electronics)
I fear Tepco has to be very careful to avoid Quince 2 to die soon too.

Any thoughts/comments about this?

Rive

Quote by Atomfritz

Any thoughts/comments about this?

IIRC those robots were surveyed much nastier places there, so I don't think that they have so limited radiation resistance.

About the tiles: as far as I know it's a common practice that the operator gets a live video feed with limited resolution only to conserve bandwidth, and he can ask for full resolution still images if necessary. (Maybe this is the explanation of the luminance difference between the video and the picture used for the pdf document.)

The live feed has twenty-some frames per second, it's pretty resistant against any coding- or transmission errors while the still images are more sensitive. Maybe that's all.

radio_guy

From what I recall reading, the Quince robots can operate in up to 2Sv worth of radiation reliably, I don't think the 0.2Sv measurement could have caused any problems.

I will say I question their choice of the camera lens, it makes for some quite distorted images, maybe it has something to do with radiation resistance?

SteveElbows

Quote by Rive

There was no explosion, true: however judged by the survey map of the level there was something coming up around the concrete plug of the reactor, and I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't cold nor careful.

The rather unsteady footage from last September, taken from the opening in the wall of reactor 2, does show stuff rising from that area.

http://tepco.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www...110924_01j.zip

As for the boots, we don't know if they were trying to deal with something such as sloshing of water from the reactor 2 spent fuel pool immediately after the earthquake but before the situation got too serious for people to be inside the building.

tsutsuji

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-...302/index.html The inside of the offsite center was shown to the press for the first time since the accident. They saw the large screen supposed to show each reactor's realtime data or predictions of the spreading of radiations, which did not function at all. The phone system supposed to reach each local government's person in charge by pushing a button also did not function because of the blackout. The offsite center had no air filtering system, and the radiation eventually rose to 200 μSv/hour so it had to be evacuated. The Nuclear Safety Commission has a plan to divide offsite centers into two parts. One part would be far enough from the plant, and the other part, in charge of evacuations would be close to the plant. But the final decision has not been taken yet.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-...0_ondokei.html On 1 March in the night, Tepco submitted its report to NISA about unit 2's alternative temperature measurements. Thermometers will be inserted through the pipes that connect to the reactor inside. It will be necessary to lower the radiations in the working environment, and in order to solve many still unsolved problems, it might be necessary to design new tools and techniques suitable for working in narrow spaces. If all the conditions are met, the measurements won't start before the end of July. Tepco is also exploring indirect methods, such as analysing the temperature of the water flowing out of the reactor.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/cc/press/betu...es/120302a.pdf The report to NISA : "Correspondence for temperature increase in the lower part of the Reactor Pressure Vessel of Unit 2 at TEPCO Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station" (Japanese).

tsutsuji

The 1 March report ( http://www.tepco.co.jp/cc/press/betu...es/120302a.pdf ) is divided into two parts. The first half, down to page 43 is about the plan to install alternative measurement tools. The second half from page 44 to the end is the assessment of existing thermometers.

On pages 88/91 - 89/91 we find a table with the resistance values of each thermometer in unit 2. For example here are the values for TE-2-3-69H2 (Vessel wall above bottom head) :

Regular inspection value : 300.47 Ω
2011.9.29 151.71Ω 0.50
2011.12.1 153.20Ω 0.51 1.01
2011.12.12 151.80Ω 0.51 1.00
2012.1.27 151.06Ω 0.50 1.00
2012.2.13 155.32Ω 0.52 1.03
2012.2.23 173.36Ω 0.58 1.15
2012.2.23 173.10Ω 0.58 1.15
2012.2.24 175.13Ω 0.58 1.16
2012.2.24 175.23Ω 0.58 1.16
2012.2.25 174.02Ω 0.58 1.15
2012.2.26 174.13Ω 0.58 1.15
2012.2.27 173.45Ω 0.58 1.15
2012.2.28 174.74Ω 0.58 1.16
2012.2.29 173.57Ω 0.58 1.15

The rates written after each Ω value (1) are : (2) measured value/regular inspection value ; (3) measured value/lowest measured value. "1.15" means that the resistance rose by 15% between 29 September and 29 February.

A plot with TE-2-3-69H2 resistance (pink) and temperature (blue) values is available page 63/91.

Here is the footnote with the meaning of each symbol in the first column of the table pages 88/91 - 89/91 :

〇　: not assessed as being broken
A1 : not connected to the central control room with a cable (backup sensor. the high radiation in reactor building basement prevents access)
A2 : assessed as being broken during the regular inspections [prior the accident]
B1 : already reported as being broken in the mid term safety report
B2 : newly assessed as being broken (wire cut)
When the measured value is unstable inside a range we wrote down the highest value.

jim hardy

has unit 3 top floor been covered with something?

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radio_guy	From what I recall reading, the Quince robots can operate in up to 2Sv worth of radiation reliably, I don't think the 0.2Sv measurement could have caused any problems. I will say I question their choice of the camera lens, it makes for some quite distorted images, maybe it has something to do with radiation resistance?

jim hardy Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor	has unit 3 top floor been covered with something?