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Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants

by gmax137
Tags: earthquake, japan, nuclear
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jensjakob
#1711
Mar28-11, 09:03 AM
P: 123
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_h28.html

"pumping in 16 tons of water every hour in #2, might cut down to the 7 tons that are evaporated every hour".

1. What happens to the 9 tons that doesnt evaporate?
2. How much thermal energy does it take to evaporate 7 tons of cold water?
3. Where does all this steam go?
dave2004
#1712
Mar28-11, 09:10 AM
P: 9
Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
Considering residual heat loads for reactors and published heat loads for SFP then there is enough energy to boil about 400m3 of water per day

With all the leaks they need a lot more
Does the US army not have transportable desalination units? A quick google search turns up there are units for flatbeds that have capacities of 140'000 GPD which I assume to be gallons per day and should be able to cope with generating enough water.
Reno Deano
#1713
Mar28-11, 09:13 AM
P: 128
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
I wanted to mention some important details in the last french IRSN report from this morning (source: http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pre...u_japon.aspx#1 ).

They are giving infos on the levels of water found in the basement of reactor n2 and N3, and the levels are much higher than what i have seen reported so far. They are talking about 1 m of water in the basement of turbine building at N2 and 1,5m in the basement of turbine building at N3! Until now i was staying with numbers like 15 or 30 cms of water in N3 (when the 3 workers were injured walking in this water)...

Does it mean that this level has dramatically increased in between?

Something else, IRSN is reporting that they found also contaminated water in several "wells" outside of buildings of reactors N2 and 3.

I see that has been reported (in other recent sources) contaminated water in a trench outside of these reactors, maybe is it the same info or a related info.
--------------------
I assume all of you posters are aware that they (TEPCO) tried to and succeeded in adding copious quantities of seawater to the 4 reactors and spent fuel pools, after significant explosions damaged upper portions (and possibly seals on the primary containment-not RPV). They did this during a station blackout and probably had to rely on analog guages, if that, to determine flows and pressures. Also, the unit(s) radwaste systems collect water from floor drains throughout the plants, including the Turbine buildings. The radwaste systems have a finite limit on their capacity. To protect the radwaste tanks, there are overflows to other areas where the water can be collected or disposed of, but not in a controlled manner. Now with all the water being washed over the spent fuel pools and out of the RPV, there is a chance much radioactivity was also washed over and out of the reactor building. Also, there were deliberate discharges from the RPVs to keep them from going solid with water and bursting from hydraulic effects. When ever they stopped pumping water into the RPV or Primary Containment there was the inevitable back flow of fluids due to increased RPV pressure or via the vent path. During normal operations connecting piping systems and hoses can involve less than leak tight fittings, even under the most favorable of working conditions. The reactor radwaste systems are inter-connected with the Turbine Building since there is also contaminated water to be collected from the Turbine Building. Under the best of conditions such a large piping system is fraught with leaks and failed valves, including check valves. Now the magnitude of the assault on the Japanese plants, I would expect many piping systems designed for normal operation to not perform as designed. Water, water everywhere and not a drop fit to drink or step in!

Let me tell you, things happening at the plants are totally new to the workers and managers and the high radiation levels significantly hamper making insitu observations and corrective actions in timely manner. Insitu photos/videos and observations, radiochemistry and radiation measurements, stablizing reactor pressures and temperatures, and getting reactor plant system guages back on line; are the only way to accurately determine the damage and future recovery actions. Speculations based on views of the exterior of the Reactor Buildings is welcomed fodder for the uniformed masses.
Borek
#1714
Mar28-11, 09:14 AM
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Borek's Avatar
P: 23,538
Quote Quote by jensjakob View Post
2. How much thermal energy does it take to evaporate 7 tons of cold water?
About 18-19 GJ, depending on the initial temperature.

Unless I am wrong.
divmstr95
#1715
Mar28-11, 09:25 AM
P: 9
Quote Quote by Bodge View Post
Are the daily updates still coming out from TEPCO re. reactor temperatures, CAMS and containment pressures?

I haven't seen any new data for a while.
Use this website:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/
jlduh
#1716
Mar28-11, 09:25 AM
P: 468
Again, every day that passes amazes me to see how weak and improvised is the response on the ground to control the consequences of this catastroph. I understand that Japan is fighting the consequences of a terrible earthquake and tsunami in addition to this nuclear crisis, but it seems that the autorities are continuing to put the responsability on Tepco shoulders to control the situation, and try to keep up with what's going (and regularly when a mistake is done, they say: "i urge you to improve your safe safety management for workers",or "I urge you to be careful when you transmit wrong measurements". It's like a scenario where a private company deals with regulation autorities and these ones tell them: "this is your responsability to manage this mess, and please do it in accordance with regulation standards and requirements")

We will have maybe the first Iso 14000 certified nuclear catastroph in Fukushima (in words, not in facts of course!)?

ok i'm a little bit sarcastic, but...

This is no more a tepco problem, this is 1) a Japan problem and even more 2) an international problem! Is the Japan state so weak to take the lead around this mess? Of course Tepco knows more about the plant than Japan autorities but again this is a different subject. Where are military resources from Japan? Two weeks after the beginning of the crisis we talk about a barge with 2000 m3 of fresh water coming to rescue, and this is from US troops? That's almost a joke to me...

This is a situation of great exception, and a lot of people in the world are waiting for an international response to this crisis, I'm not even sure we can talk of a Japan response until now based on what we saw in the last 2 weeks. I don't know what is going on with international experts and resources on the ground, but if this is a (long and difficult) battle against this damn nuclear plan that is going on (like the BATTLE of tchernobyl has been called), then when will this battle get large adequate exception means to be won?

I've always been impressed with the vocabulary used in civil nuclear industry (for example, the protection enveloppes are called "lines of defense", Reno DEANO just above is talking about the "assault on the japanese plant" ;o)) and this is related with the fact that civil nuclear has been historically a direct "byproduct" or sister of military nuclear (to make bombs plutonium was required). For the russians in Tchernobyl, from day one it was clear: this is a state and military problem with state and military -huge- ressources and management to cope with the accident (of course no war is clean in reality even if some use a vocabulary like "chirurgical weapons" to create the impression it can be: the tchernobyl battle was also a "dirty" battle from environment and human standpoint of course).

I don't know if i express well the point that i saw several times expressed in one way or another on this forum but clearly, i see a huge difference in scale between the problem and the "solutions". Like if everybody was willing to underscale the response in order to underscale the problem... I really don't think that now that the "toothpaste went outside of the tube", a private company can handle the crisis (even if from the juridic standpoint they are probably responsible), the scale has to be upgraded to one or two levels concerning the strategical leadership.

I'm talking about Leadership. Time is critical and involves some leadership decisions to be made. The inertia from this standpoint is blatant.

EDIT: an other example of the weak and confusing leadership from the state standpoint (i already mentioned earlier on this thread this problem citing an interview of the Minamisoma's mayor who was upset with unclear decisions from government): More evacuees return to homes near nuclear plant!

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_14.html

How hell can peole there understand something to the misleading communication of authorities and unclear leadership scale of the current problem? "No evacuation order between 20 and 30kms (just "advice" to leave on a volunteer basis) for the two first weeks must mean that it is not so serious, this is a plant problem and the autorities are not even steeping in to take the leadership on the site, this is a sign that the situation is not so serious": isn't this that a lot of japan folks not knowledgeable of the details can think and spread around?
Joe Neubarth
#1717
Mar28-11, 09:31 AM
P: 238
Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
Considering residual heat loads for reactors and published heat loads for SFP then there is enough energy to boil about 400m3 of water per day

With all the leaks they need a lot more
Unless they are trucking it off site, they will eventually run out of space to store the contaminated water. All of the concrete basement structures will eventually adsorb tremendous amounts of radiation that can only be eliminated by carting the cement away. (Not Practical, and it would add to air particulate radiation), so they need to cap those highly radioactive spots once they figure out what to do with the Reactor cores/Lava flow (depending upon what you believe is happening.)

They have got an environmental mess there that they will be tending to for a great, great many years.
Joe Neubarth
#1718
Mar28-11, 09:48 AM
P: 238
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
Again, every day that passes amazes me to see how weak and improvised is the response on the ground to control the consequences of this catastroph. I understand that Japan is fighting the consequences of a terrible earthquake and tsunami in addition to this nuclear crisis, but it seems that the autorities are continuing to put the responsability on Tepco shoulders to control the situation, and try to keep up with what's going (and regularly when a mistake is done, they say: "i urge you to improve your safe safety management for workers",or "I urge you to be careful when you transmit wrong measurements". It's like a scenario where a private company deals with regulation autorities and these ones tell them: "this is your responsability to manage this mess, and please do it in accordance with regulation standards and requirements")

We will have maybe the first Iso 14000 certified nuclear catastroph in Fukushima...

This is no more a tepco problem, this is 1) a Japan problem and even more 2) an international problem! Is the Japan state so weak to take the lead around this mess? Of course Tepco knows more about the plant than Japan autorities but again this is a different subject. Where are military resources from Japan? Two weeks after the beginning of the crisis we talk about a barge with 2000 m3 of fresh water coming to rescue, and this is from US troops? That's almost a joke to me...

This is a situation of great exception, and a lot of people in the world are waiting for an international response to this crisis, I'm not even sure we can talk of a Japan response until now based on what we saw in the last 2 weeks. I don't know what is going on with international experts and resources on the ground, but if this is a (long and difficult) battle against this damn nuclear plan that is going on (like the BATTLE of tchernobyl has been called), then when will this battle get large adequate exception means to be won?

I've always been impressed with the vocabulary used in civil nuclear industry (for example, the protection enveloppes are called "lines of defense", Reno DEANO just above is talking about the "assault on the japanese plant" ;o)) and this is related with the fact that civil nuclear has been historically a direct "byproduct" or sister of military nuclear (to make bombs plutonium was required). For the russians in Tchernobyl, from day one it was clear: this is a state and military problem with state and military -huge- ressources and management to cope with the accident (of course no war is clean in reality even if some use a vocabulary like "chirurgical weapons" to create the impression it can be: the tchernobyl battle was also a "dirty" battle from environment and human standpoint of course).

I don't know if i express well the point that i saw several times expressed in one way or another on this forum but clearly, i see a huge difference in scale between the problem and the "solutions". Like if everybody was willing to underscale the response in order to underscale the problem... I really don't think that now that the "toothpaste went outside of the tube", a private company can handle the crisis (even if from the juridic standpoint they are probably responsible), the scale has to be upgraded to one or two levels concerning the strategical leadership.

I'm talking about Leadership. Time is critical and involves some leadership decisions to be made. The inertia from this standpoint is blatant.
We can always do what our dear sister Angela is doing in Germany and that is say, "No More Nukes!" I feel that this is impractical and will never be the solution globally. Nuclear Power is here to stay even if isolated to certain regions of the globe. We just have to design our plants better. From an engineering standpoint there are many questions about the design of Fukushima with respect to the region it was built, and many questions about their preparation for multiple emergencies. When you see statements like, "The plug did not fit." you know somebody did not do their homework on disaster preparedness. That is water over the dam now. What do we need to recover from this mess is the operative question now.
Joe Neubarth
#1719
Mar28-11, 10:01 AM
P: 238
Quote Quote by jensjakob View Post
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_h28.html

"pumping in 16 tons of water every hour in #2, might cut down to the 7 tons that are evaporated every hour".

1. What happens to the 9 tons that doesnt evaporate?
2. How much thermal energy does it take to evaporate 7 tons of cold water?
3. Where does all this steam go?
1. Sits in pools and where possible leaks into the ground as all water does.
2. I think somebody answered this.
3. In this situation that which does not condense (Where designed, or on walls, steel girders and such) escapes to the winds.
jlduh
#1720
Mar28-11, 10:02 AM
P: 468
What do we need to recover from this mess is the operative question now.
Yes Joe, and my point was on this subject: leadership on the operative question.

I was not even talking about nuclear necessity of whatever related to this, i was saying: when the mess is spread around in a similar scenario that was not even foreseen in the worst case scenarios (which explains the unplanned actions: i remember everybody that US experts said quickly that using seawater to cool the cores like that was a desesperate decision -even if the only one!) , this becomes a state or international problem, and the leadership has to REFLECT this fact.

This is the limit of private companies in this matter i think, because they just can't handle it as fast and as strong as it should be. A nuclear plant which is in this situation of large and fast evoluting mess induces an exception state which a company cannot, "by design", handle...

Like it or not, but I'm afraid it's true, and will become more and more obvious as days will go...
Reno Deano
#1721
Mar28-11, 10:13 AM
P: 128
Again, every day that passes amazes me to see how weak and improvised is the response on the ground to control the consequences of this catastrophe. I understand that Japan is fighting the consequences of a terrible earthquake and tsunami in addition to this nuclear crisis, but it seems that the authorities are continuing to put the responsibility on TEPCO shoulders to control the situation, and try to keep up with what's going (and regularly when a mistake is done, they say: "i urge you to improve your safe safety management for workers",or "I urge you to be careful when you transmit wrong measurements". It's like a scenario where a private company deals with regulation authorities and these ones tell them: "this is your responsibility to manage this mess, and please do it in accordance with regulation standards and requirements")
You have no idea of the level of stress the Accident managers, workers, and Government is under during the unprecedented multiple reactor accidents. Confusion and indecisiveness is rampant in the Emergency Ops Center, Government (which is dealing with a more larger deadly crisis outside of the reactor plant grounds) and assist organizations. Combine this with the assistance from the World nuclear experts, which have never seen this type of situation to even one reactor, and are faced with three reactors and spent fuel pools with different levels of catastrophic damage. Due to the resultant Station Blackout, explosions, and emergency equipment failures, they were not allowed the grace of moving from one problem to another in an orderly fashion.

Yes, we all want timely and accurate data, but that is not the real world during a catastrophic nuclear emergency, or even a lesser one, believe me.

Do not condemn until you have walked in their shoes.

We will gain invaluable information and lessons learned from their mistakes and miscues, but during the next catastrophic reactor accident similar mistakes and miscue's will also be made.

Dean Chaney, CHP
37 Years in the Nuclear Reactor Industry
|Fred
#1722
Mar28-11, 10:14 AM
P: 312
I fear this is getting off topic to political issue. I guess on Kiefer Sutherland's 24 the US army was a lot more involved and they only need the tech operator to look clueless, while Military will solve everything did it's thingy.

The SDF are working at the Fukushima plant, it's the closest thing to an army that Japan has, since WW2 Japan kind of made a point in not having an army (per say).
Those are the one putting water into the plant for the past days.
Bodge
#1723
Mar28-11, 10:17 AM
P: 145
And there it is: Pu-238,239,240



In soil samples, more info here:

http://plixi.com/p/87602186

[Sampled 22nd]
TCups
#1724
Mar28-11, 10:20 AM
TCups's Avatar
P: 494
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
BEWARE concerning the picture you posted FRED on the internal top floor layout: This is a picture i previously posted here i think three days ago (i did only a print screen capture of the video of Mr Tanaka's conference) and i mentionned that IT WAS PRESENTED BY TANAKA AS THE INTERIOR OF TOP FLOOR OF REACTOR N6 WHICH IS A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF BWR REACTOR (i mentionned that the building is square from the top, the other ones 1 to 5 are rectangular). He presented this because he wanted to show the various parts of a reactor fully opened with the reactor's cover, the containement vessel's cover and the pool. But the actual layout and position from a geographical standpoint are probably different in reactors 1 to 5.

So this picture can be misleading if used to describe damaged reactors.

I didn't find until now actual pictures of the damaged reactors previously taken before the accident.
Understand. I could not find an exact floor plan of the top floors of units 3 or 4, but it has been confirmed, I believe, that the SPF's are in the SE corner. Here is a wider angle view of the damaged Unit 3.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/Picture8.png
artax
#1725
Mar28-11, 10:22 AM
P: 159
Quote Quote by |Fred View Post
I fear this is getting off topic to political issue. I guess on Kiefer Sutherland's 24 the US army was a lot more involved and they only need the tech operator to look clueless, while Military will solve everything did it's thingy.

The SDF are working at the Fukushima plant, it's the closest thing to an army that Japan has, since WW2 Japan kind of made a point in not having an army (per say).
Those are the one putting water into the plant for the past days.
Probably due to the lack of new information.
We're bored 'cos there's nothing new to work on!
I think if they gave the truth out to all concerned they'd get answers, not panic.... OK they feel embarrased, but mistakes happen.... we only learn something REALLY when we make a mistake so swallow your pride, and tell us what happening!
divmstr95
#1726
Mar28-11, 10:26 AM
P: 9
Quote Quote by Bodge View Post
And there it is: Pu-238,239,240



In soil samples, more info here:

http://plixi.com/p/87602186

[Sampled 22nd]
Any idea where these samples were taken? I see the distances. Do you know what they are in relation to?

Sorry, my knowledge of Kanji is pretty poor.
Bodge
#1727
Mar28-11, 10:27 AM
P: 145
Quote Quote by Astronuc View Post
...If the fuel material was washed out, then the core is less likely to become critical, because the fuel material would end up in the water, which is at the bottom of the core or in the plenum underneath the core, where there is a lot of hardware...
Is it even possible to 'wash out' the reactors and distribute fuel wherever the water goes?

Have they had the available water pressure to move out broken/melted fuel rods; I'm assuming the fuel is pretty dense..

Or, is that exactly what they've been doing for 10 days: flushing out the cores to prevent further explosions?

If so, the groundwater and the pacific will get a battering.
Bodge
#1728
Mar28-11, 10:32 AM
P: 145
Quote Quote by divmstr95 View Post
Any idea where these samples were taken? I see the distances. Do you know what they are in relation to?

Sorry, my knowledge of Kanji is pretty poor.


http://plixi.com/p/87602186


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