Physics Misconception: Roller Coaster Equation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the physics of roller coasters, specifically addressing the forces at play when a roller coaster is at the apex of its track. Participants explore concepts related to centripetal acceleration, free body diagrams, and the role of velocity and gravity in maintaining the coaster's motion along the track.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question what keeps a roller coaster from falling at the top of the track, noting that there is no force pulling it up.
  • Others propose that the curvature of the track allows the coaster to stay on it despite falling, suggesting a relationship between the coaster's speed and the track's curvature.
  • There are discussions about calculating the forces acting on the coaster at the apex, with references to Newton's 2nd law and centripetal acceleration.
  • Some participants emphasize the role of inertia and velocity in keeping the coaster on the track, comparing it to a ball on a string being swung overhead.
  • Concerns are raised about understanding free body diagrams and the effects of gravity on the coaster's motion, with some confusion about the relationship between velocity and gravitational force.
  • A later reply mentions that the coaster is indeed falling while moving forward, clarifying that both weight and normal force act downward at the apex.
  • There is a mention of misconceptions in physics, with examples provided by participants, indicating a broader interest in understanding common misunderstandings in the field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the forces acting on the roller coaster, with some agreeing on the role of centripetal acceleration while others remain uncertain about the implications of velocity and gravity. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the best way to conceptualize these forces.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the need for clarity in understanding the relationship between forces and motion, particularly in the context of free body diagrams and the effects of different forces acting simultaneously. There are also references to misconceptions that may complicate the understanding of these concepts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and educators interested in the dynamics of roller coasters, the application of Newtonian physics, and the exploration of common misconceptions in physics.

T@P
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I have a question: if a roller coaster is gowing around a track, what is keeping it from falling down at the top? I know there is no "force" pulling it up, but how could i write an equation to measure that pull (acceleration)?
 
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Sure it's falling down, but the track has a greater curvature that the trajectory of the car falling at that speed. So, it stays on the track.
 
true, but is there a way to calculate the force acting up on the roller coaster at the apex of its revolution?
 
T@P said:
true, but is there a way to calculate the force acting up on the roller coaster at the apex of its revolution?
I assume you are talking about a coaster going upside down in a loop-the-loop fashion? If so, realize that the coaster is undergoing centripetal acceleration downward. So identify the forces on the coaster and use Newton's 2nd law.
 
The forces at the top would be mg down and the normal force also down. How does it stay up...?
 
T@P said:
The forces at the top would be mg down and the normal force also down. How does it stay up...?
Inertia---It's moving! It "stays" up the same way a ball on the end of a string stays up if you were to swing it overhead. (It doesn't really stay up there---it goes around and back down.)

If there were no forces acting on the coaster, it would just keep moving in a straight line. If only gravity acted, it would assume a parabolic trajectory. But the track also exerts a force making it go in a tighter circle. Assuming the coaster is not attached to the track (of course it is!), if the speed is too low, it will fall off the track!
 
I understand the idea, but what keeps it up would be the velocity? but isn't the velocity perpendicular to the force of gravity and therefore have no effect on it? I am sorry if I appear slow and thank you for your help, but i simply don't understand how I could draw a freebody diagram of an object at the top of a roller coaster and see that it does not fall down?
 
T@P said:
I understand the idea, but what keeps it up would be the velocity? but isn't the velocity perpendicular to the force of gravity and therefore have no effect on it?
In a loop, the acceleration is perpendicular to the velocity and the acceleration force is what you are looking for
 
T@P said:
I understand the idea, but what keeps it up would be the velocity? but isn't the velocity perpendicular to the force of gravity and therefore have no effect on it? I am sorry if I appear slow and thank you for your help, but i simply don't understand how I could draw a freebody diagram of an object at the top of a roller coaster and see that it does not fall down?
But it does fall down! It is accelerated downward due to the forces on it. (Keep in mind that a force is need to change a velocity, not cause a velocity.) It doesn't fall straight down, since it does have a sideways velocity. :smile:

And why would you think gravity would not affect something just because it is moving sideways? (True, it would not affect the horizontal speed, but it would certainly change the vertical.)

The free body diagram is easy. The only forces, as you noted, are the weight and normal force which both act down. And the acceleration is down, so it all makes sense. Note that if the curve of the track is stronger (smaller radius) than the parabolic arc of a free projectile, that the track must push down on the coaster to force it to follow the track--that's the normal force.
 
  • #10
I think I understand. Thank you doc al and russ_watters for your help! :)
 
  • #11
question about physics misconceptions

Are there "types" of physics misconception? i can't seem to find anything about it... tnx!
 
  • #12
T@P said:
The forces at the top would be mg down and the normal force also down. How does it stay up...?

it doesn't stay up. it is falling as well as moving forward.
 
  • #13
This is the same as a centrifuge. Spins everything around and around at high speeds, heavier masses going more vertical, lower mass sinking to the bottom. This is from the centrifugal force giving off a greater force than that of gravity.

I think that's right anyways.
 
  • #14
Note: The original question, which is nearly 2 years old, has been answered to the satisfaction of the OP. The current quesstion is about misconceptions in physics.
 
  • #15
As for some common physics misconceptions, a few that come to mind, going by threads here are:

i. Action Reaction Confusion: Horse pulls cart; so cart pulls horse equally ; there should be no motion

ii. Trainstopping: ball thrown at train, head on; at some point of time, ball has zero speed in ground frame; so train must too

iii. SR: Several concepts in special relativity are widely discussed though poorly understood; notable among these are time dilation and simultaneity

iv. Antimass: antimatter has negative mass...!
 

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