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Cold Fusion Back In The Limelight - Guest Speaker Dr. Brian Josephson

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Thetom
#1
Mar25-11, 11:11 PM
P: 56
What do you guys make of this??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-beyond-japan/

It says, and i quote:

The potential benefits are great enough that, despite past failures, the technology deserves a fair hearing from the scientific community this time.
Which makes me feel at least partly safe posting this on PF.

Any thoughts?
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MacLaddy
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Mar25-11, 11:14 PM
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Quote Quote by Thetom View Post
What do you guys make of this??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-beyond-japan/

It says, and i quote:



Which makes me feel at least partly safe posting this on PF.

Any thoughts?

I was just asking the same question, and then you beat me to it.

[Edit by Ivan: Link deleted]

This subject has been locked in two other threads, but I think it may bear some scrutiny. Is this website I listed a legit source? [No ]
Ivan Seeking
#3
Mar25-11, 11:22 PM
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Note that this topic qualifies for S&D only because there is evidence for a mystery as per the results of a 2004 conference. Evidence for cold fusion may be another matter entirely.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...2&postcount=19

Very frustrating, only the aps link is working on that page. The rest are dead but the dates are referenced.

MacLaddy
#4
Mar25-11, 11:25 PM
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Cold Fusion Back In The Limelight - Guest Speaker Dr. Brian Josephson

Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking View Post
Note that this qualifies for S&D only because there is evidence for a mystery. Evidence for cold fusion may be another matter entirely.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...2&postcount=19
Thank you, Ivan, for letting this one shine in the light for a bit. Hopefully someone much more educated than I can give some feedback.
Ivan Seeking
#5
Mar25-11, 11:32 PM
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Note that legitimate scientific publications appropriate here are listed at the following link
http://scientific.thomson.com/index.html

If you have problems with the search feature, you can view the entire list here.
http://www.thomsonscientific.com/cgi....cgi?PC=MASTER

The claims of the Italian Scientists are only worthy of consideration if their work is published in an appropriate journal. MacLaddy, what you had linked was a blog, not a journal.

Do we have anything beyond an unsubstantiated, wild claim?
MacLaddy
#6
Mar25-11, 11:50 PM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking View Post
Note that legitimate scientific publications appropriate here are listed at the following link
http://scientific.thomson.com/index.html
This is a great link, and no, I could not locate any information about this topic within the search feature.

If you have problems with the search feature, you can view the entire list here.
http://www.thomsonscientific.com/cgi....cgi?PC=MASTER
This link isn't working.
(edit: Now it is)

The claims of the Italian Scientists are only worthy of consideration if their work is published in an appropriate journal. MacLaddy, what you had linked was a blog, not a journal.
Do we have anything beyond an unsubstantiated and wild claim?
Apparently I am a sucker for a scientific name, my apologies.

Quote Quote by http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-01/italian-scientists-claim-dubious-cold-fusion-breakthrough
Based on this lack of even a theoretical basis for the deviceís function, a patent application was rejected. Their credibility isnít helped by the fact that Rossi apparently has something of a rap sheet, which allegedly includes illegally importing gold and tax fraud.
I'm still a bit green when it comes to appropriate researching, but it appears that we'll just have to wait until the big event in Greece to see if there is anything legit to this.
Ivan Seeking
#7
Mar25-11, 11:53 PM
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Quote Quote by MacLaddy View Post
This is a great link, and no, I could not locate any information about this topic within the search feature.

This link isn't working.
(edit: Now it is)

Apparently I am a sucker for a scientific name, my apologies.
The link has been fixed. No problem; that's why we're here.
Thetom
#8
Mar26-11, 12:22 AM
P: 56
Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking View Post
The claims of the Italian Scientists are only worthy of consideration if their work is published in an appropriate journal.
It sounds like they claim to have already built one, but so far journals are refusing to publish.

Question: Wouldn't it be very easy to validate their claims seeing as they supposedly already have the device? And what happens when peers in the community do validate the findings but the journals continue to refuse to publish? Can that even happen?

The reason i ask is because it sounded like it has already been peer-review, at least superficially, by Giuseppe Levi.

A nuclear physicist associated with the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics, Giuseppe Levi, told reporters at the January demonstration that he was convinced the results were accurate
If he has investigated it thoroughly and is prepared to submit a paper attesting to the fact, aren't the journals duty bound to publish? See i'm not a scientist and not sure how it works (the peer-review process, not cold fusion )
Ivan Seeking
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Mar26-11, 12:34 AM
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Quote Quote by Thetom View Post
It sounds like they claim to have already built one, but so far journals are refusing to publish.

Question: Wouldn't it be very easy to validate their claims seeing as they supposedly already have the device? And what happens when peers in the community do validate the findings but the journals continue to refuse to publish? Can that even happen?

The reason i ask is because it sounded like it has already been peer-review, at least superficially, by Giuseppe Levi.
There is a process to science and it works. If there is anything to this claim, it will be published - you can bet on it. It would be earth-shaking news. There is no sense in guessing when we have journals to sort this out.

If he has investigated it thoroughly and is prepared to submit a paper attesting to the fact, aren't the journals duty bound to publish? See i'm not a scientist and not sure how it works (the peer-review process, not cold fusion )
"Prepared to submit" is not the same as "submitted and published". When a claim can't be tested directly, or at least not easily so, things get a little more dicey. But when a claim, like this one, can be tested directly, there is no need for speculation. There is no way the scientific community would let something like this slip through the cracks were it legit. It would be front-page news, beyond question, almost immediately.

Based on what I've seen, this is almost certainly a con job.

purportedly using 400 watts of power to generate 12,400 watts
Yeah, right. Trust me. If they can do this, there is no need to worry about informing the world, It will happen overnight. There would be no doubt.
Thetom
#10
Mar26-11, 12:45 AM
P: 56
I understand. And yeah it sounds pretty spectacular.

I also just found this which answered my question in part:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...=238709&page=2
Note to readers: When it comes to material that some claim should be published, or that would be published if not for bias, our position is that we do not buy into conspiracy theories, and that we allow the journals to do the debunking for us. If someone can't get published in an appropriate journal, there is no need to justify that here.
Ivan Seeking
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Mar26-11, 12:57 AM
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There is some irony in this in that Pons and Fleishman - the fathers of cold fusion - jumped to improper conclusions and then managed to get PBS News to put their story up front without publication. No one was lying, but it sure did embarrass a lot of people. I've been a PBS fan since almost the very start. I consider that rush to broadcast their single biggest mistake in the history of the network. I will never forget watching that report and thinking, my God... can this be true?!?!?! For a moment it seemed the world had been changed forever.

I was actually there when Ponds and Fleishman first presented their data to the American Electrochemical Society. It was really a very embarrassing evening for everyone. A number of speakers completely destroyed P&F's paper.
Pengwuino
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Mar26-11, 01:07 AM
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Quote Quote by Thetom View Post

If he has investigated it thoroughly and is prepared to submit a paper attesting to the fact, aren't the journals duty bound to publish? See i'm not a scientist and not sure how it works (the peer-review process, not cold fusion )
Journals will have what are called 'referees' look at the papers and look for flaws. Journals are under no requirement to publish anything. There are limited resources and journals have a standard to maintain. However, if this is legit, they would want to. Trust me, for a journal to be the ones who refused to publish something this earth-shattering if it were completely legit would be unbelievably counter-productive. They would lose a lot of standing and standing is something makes any journal great (and what sells subscriptions!).

There is tremendous financial incentive for people to just make up something this revolutionary. Ignoring all the psychological incentives such as fame and admiration and delusions of grandeur, there would be lots of money to be made for anyone corrupt enough to try to push a fake idea like this.

Of course, they may just have something wrong that they haven't found out yet. It happens. If they DO have something that spectacular, however, you have a world changing event.
Thetom
#13
Mar26-11, 01:59 AM
P: 56
Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking View Post
There is some irony in this in that Ponds and Fleishman - the fathers of cold fusion - jumped to improper conclusions and then managed to get PBS News to put their story up front without publication. No one was lying, but it sure did embarrass a lot of people. I've been a PBS fan since almost the very start. I consider that rush to broadcast their single biggest mistake in the history of the network. I will never forget watching that report and thinking, my God... can this be true?!?!?! For a moment it seemed the world had been changed forever.

I was actually there when Ponds and Fleishman first presented their data to the American Electrochemical Society. It was really a very embarrassing evening for everyone. A number of speakers completely destroyed P&F's paper.
Wow, i bet that was quite a night. I'm beginning to understand the gravity of these claims.

I've only seen a couple of things from PBS as i'm in the UK. Wasn't The Elegant Universe (string theory thing) done by PBS? I have to say, the Elegant Universe TV programme was very differnt to the book. I saw Brian Greene present it and thought he was so cheesy and probably didn't even understand the thing he was presenting, not realizing he was actually the author. How wrong I was. I've learnt to love Mr.Greene's passionate delivery now.

Quote Quote by Pengwuino View Post
There is tremendous financial incentive for people to just make up something this revolutionary.
Like selling the story to The Washington Times for a start!

And thanks for the answers
russ_watters
#14
Mar26-11, 09:18 AM
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Quote Quote by Thetom View Post
What do you guys make of this??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-beyond-japan/

It says, and i quote:
The potential benefits are great enough that, despite past failures, the technology deserves a fair hearing from the scientific community this time.
Which makes me feel at least partly safe posting this on PF.

Any thoughts?
The opinions of an op-ed editor of a local newspaper, who'se scientific credentials are unknown don't carry a lot of weight. To the quote specifically:

1. He implies that CF didn't get a fair hearing the first time. He's wrong - it did.
2. He implies that by not publishing the results of the Italian experiment, it isn't getting a fair hearing now. He's wrong again.
Willowz
#15
Mar26-11, 01:48 PM
P: 256
I don't get it. Why aren't stars doing "cold fusion", if it exists as a "possibility". It's like talking about "square-circles". Nonsense.
Ivan Seeking
#16
Mar26-11, 01:50 PM
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Quote Quote by Willowz View Post
I don't get it. Why aren't stars doing "cold fusion", if it exists as a "possibility". It's like talking about "square-circles". Nonsense.
Because they are doing hot fusion?
Willowz
#17
Mar26-11, 01:53 PM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking View Post
Because they are doing hot fusion?
Maybe I was vague. Why can't we see evidence in nature backing the concept of having "cold fusion"... as an energy source worth seeking?
Ivan Seeking
#18
Mar26-11, 02:02 PM
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Quote Quote by Willowz View Post
Maybe I was vague. Why can't we see evidence in nature backing the concept of having "cold fusion"... as an energy source worth seeking?
There was a scientific model being used to explain the results.

The key is that the claim was first based on experimental evidence. If one can prove something is happening, existence doesn't depend on our ability to explain it. And people still claim to be getting anomalous results.

Can you name any examples of naturally occuring fission? We know fission works.


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