Drugs are bad.... M'kay?

**kat** · Sep2-03, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by eNtRopY
Yeah, my born-again Christian mother used to tell me the same thing when I was in high school... the consumption of drugs and alcohol is a form of witchcraft. The fact that you have to resort to using an archaic definition of a loosely translated word demonstrates to me how dead Christianity really is.

Stop grasping at straws. It's really just an insult to intelligence in general.

eNtRopY

This was really rude and unnecessary...

**servant** · May18-04, 12:41 AM

Hey, I'm new, so be gentle.
Drugs, drugs, drugs. To truley understand this argument it takes express knowledge of drugs or enlightenment from the creator and an understanding of moral tresspass, (or incredible faith, much like that of a child who belives his dad when told, "Don't touch that, it will burn you!").
Drunkeness is a sin because were are comanded to not become drunk, which leads to debauchery, and a sick mind, (I'll dig up referances latter). Most other drugs become dangerous when utilized, as some can only be, with an express porpous in mind. The first time I used many drugs all I felt was the effect of thoes drugs on my mind and body. At this time I was a huminist/atheist who had no belife therefore no interest in the spiritual aspect of the human experiance. I.E. what you see is what you get and when you die you are only so much compost. I remember when that all changed for me.
I had used LSD probably fourty times of more before I "Broke Through" as it were. There came a point when I felt the urge to "let go completley" of self and rational thought, and when I did I found myself "enlightend", or awakend to a world of spiritual relms. I later found that I could duplicate the experiance via meditation, TM, yoga, practicing astral projection...etc. I later found out from a Yogi that indeed the same states of alterd conciousness could be acheived with the use of certain drugs, but he thought that method was lazy, and looked uppon by most in that relm of these disciplines as somehow a crutch, making for a second rate citizen among the "enlightened", as it were. (I later found that, for me the opiates were the most reliable and least harsh on the natural mind for this practice.) I also found out that when one becomes involved in this, (witchcraft), weather through drugs or other, less illicit routs, he becomes enslaved. The bondage is actually quite strong. The happy feelings and self awarness one thinks he finds is actually a fetter. And things become quite hellish for him who seeks to be released from his bondage through Jesus Christ's redemption on the cross.
You see, witchcraft is an attempt to assert your own will over creation, (weather the natural or spiritual creation), which is what got Lucifer, (light-barrer), kicked out of heaven in the first place, and the exact same attitude behind Adamic, (original), sin, (I.E. rebellion in the garden by eating 'the fruit'). The lie goes something like, "For God knows that once you eat of eat you will become like God, knowing both good and evil".
There are basicly only two religions in the world; Either God is God, or man is god. If you realy are seeking the external and imutable truth concerning moral tresspass and the use of drugs as witchcraft, try this; Submit your life to Jesus, accept his gift of salvation, and true wisdom concerning such things will be yours.
Or, if you want to try a more circtuitous route, become enslaved by pharmacia, or witchcraft, or TM, yoga, mantra, or many other new age occultic routes to the spiritual relm, and find out for yourself; either when you die and are judged, or find the grace and hope that is in Christ Jesus and find redemption.
In defense of drugs and Genisis; God did give every seed bearing plant to us for medicine and whatnot, (excluding, of corse, the tree of the knowlege of good and evil). My favorite drug I used for witchcraft, opiates, in most anny form, is obviously given by God to man for the relief of pain. Mankind has not come up with it's equal in the lab. I'd imagine most any plant can be found to have redemptive proporties when used in the proper mannor. But as far as, "harmless recreation" goes, the answer is no. What, are you bored with the gift of the mind God granted you? What a slap in the face of Jesus! He created something so profound that it can ponder the deep things of his creation, and we go and alter the way it works. By the way, be honest with yourself; Does getting high really improve or "enlighten" the mind? I've found just the opposite to be true. I'm speaking from experiance. Don't belive me? Look for yourself at the pletera of data in the scientific comunity. Oh, I agree that, for the poet it may bring some interesting thoughts, or beautiful pictures to the mind of the painter, or musical inovations to the artist. Granted. But was it the chemical that encoded thoes expressions in his mind? Naw, your selling yourself short if you belive that. Only the sober mind can truely conceive the profound, everything else is just fooling yourself.
Okay. I hope I don't get flamed, but I would relly like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

**hypnagogue** · May18-04, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by servant

I also found out that when one becomes involved in this, (witchcraft), weather through drugs or other, less illicit routs, he becomes enslaved. The bondage is actually quite strong. The happy feelings and self awarness one thinks he finds is actually a fetter.

And the same could not be said for any religious faith?

By the way, be honest with yourself; Does getting high really improve or "enlighten" the mind? I've found just the opposite to be true. I'm speaking from experiance.

In the proper contexts, yes, it can. I'm speaking from experience.

edit: I should emphasize 'proper contexts.' It is certainly true that much, if not most, drug use cannot properly be called 'enlightening,' and that even repeated use of the same drug may or may not produce/reproduce such an effect, and that excessive, long term drug use is not in anyone's best interest. However, I must maintain that your categorical denial of the value of any and all drug use is misguided. Certain drugs used in certain contexts, with a bit of serendipity, can and do produce states that can rightfully be called 'enlightening' or 'spiritual experiences.' I say this not in the interest of prescribing how one should live one's life, but rather in the interest of stating the plain fact of the matter.

Only the sober mind can truely conceive the profound, everything else is just fooling yourself.

Not only is this an a priori assumption / gross generalization with no real basis, it also undercuts the very religious bedrock you are trying to establish. The truly great influences in all religions have had inspirations stemming from visions, spiritual experiences, and the like-- clearly states of mind that could not be properly called 'sober.'

William James provides an extensive argument against your assertion in his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, posted here. Here's a relevant excerpt:

Let us play fair in this whole matter, and be quite candid with ourselves and with the facts. When we think certain states of mind superior to others, is it ever because of what we know concerning their organic antecedents? No! it is always for two entirely different reasons. It is either because we take an immediate delight in them; or else it is because we believe them to bring us good consequential fruits for life. When we speak disparagingly of 'feverish fancies,' surely the fever-process as such is not the ground of our disesteem- for aught we know to the contrary, 103 degrees or 104 degrees Fahrenheit might be a much more favorable temperature for truths to germinate and sprout in, than the more ordinary blood-heat of 97 or 98 degrees. It is either the disagreeableness itself of the fancies, or their inability to bear the criticisms of the convalescent hour. When we praise the thoughts which health brings, health's peculiar chemical metabolisms have nothing to do with determining our judgment. We know in fact almost nothing about these metabolisms. It is the character of inner happiness in the thoughts which stamps them as good, or else their consistency with our other opinions and their serviceability for our needs, which make them pass for true in our esteem.

Now the more intrinsic and the more remote of these criteria do not always hang together. Inner happiness and serviceability do not always agree. What immediately feels most 'good' is not always most 'true,' when measured by the verdict of the rest of experience. The difference between Philip drunk and Philip sober is the classic instance in corroboration. If merely 'feeling good' could decide, drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. But its revelations, however acutely satisfying at the moment, are inserted into an environment which refuses to bear them out for any length of time. The consequence of this discrepancy of the two criteria is the uncertainty which still prevails over so many of our spiritual judgments. There are moments of sentimental and mystical experience- we shall hereafter hear much of them- that carry an enormous sense of inner authority and illumination with them when they come. But they come seldom, and they do not come to every one; and the rest of life makes either no connection with them, or tends to contradict them more than it confirms them. Some persons follow more the voice of the moment in these cases, some prefer to be guided by the average results. Hence the sad discordancy of so many of the spiritual judgments of human beings; a discordancy which will be brought home to us acutely enough before these lectures end. -

It is, however, a discordancy that can never be resolved by any merely medical test.

[...]

In the natural sciences and industrial arts it never occurs to any one to try to refute opinions by showing up their author's neurotic constitution. Opinions here are invariably tested by logic and by experiment, no matter what may be their author's neurological type. It should be no otherwise with religious opinions. Their value can only be ascertained by spiritual judgments directly passed upon them, judgments based on our own immediate feeling primarily; and secondarily on what we can ascertain of their experiential relations to our moral needs and to the rest of what we hold as true.

Immediate luminousness, in short, philosophical reasonableness, and moral helpfulness are the only available criteria. Saint Teresa might have had the nervous system of the placidest cow, and it would not now save her theology, if the trial of the theology by these other tests should show it to be contemptible. And conversely if her theology can stand these other tests, it will make no difference how hysterical or nervously off her balance Saint Teresa may have been when she was with us here below."

Note that James is speaking here in defense of the insights garnered from religious experiences, but the argument generalizes to cover insights garnered from any sort of mental constitution that is different from the norm (not 'sober').

**honestrosewater** · May21-04, 11:12 AM

Huh huh he said astral uh huh hyeah...

**Mudvaynelethaldosage** · Jun10-04, 04:54 AM

I think drugs are ok if used for recreational use. I frequently use marijuana and alcohol (every weekend in fact). I'm considering hallucinogenic mushrooms. I think lsd, and ecstasy are ok for recreation too (although I personally haven't tried yet). I am against hard drugs though, like heroin, crack, meth, cocaine, ect. I never drink or smoke alone. I don't have a family I abuse. I don't have kids that starve so I can feed my habit. I am just a teenager having fun on weekends. I think if one is against drugs, that's cool. They don't have to do drugs. I get angry about the war on drugs. It is total bull****. Why make pot so illegal, it's a victimless crime. I would almost go through my massive stack of porn to find a certain issue of Playboy for this (I'm one of the ppl that actually read Playboy, lol). There was an article about the war on drugs. A law was passed so that police can search homes at any hour that were suspected of manufacturing drugs. It stated that the police would get addresses wrong quite frequently. It spoke of an incident where the police raided the wrong house in the middle of the night. They busted down a bedroom door and scared a man with a loaded gun. Not knowing it was police, he raised the gun. The police shot him dead in his bed. Just another innocent victim in this bull**** war on drugs.
The issue of Playboy is probably from '01 or '02.

**Pergatory** · Jun16-04, 01:04 PM

I would tend to agree with servant's views that all these various methods we use are all attempts to achieve the same thing. However, I would disagree that Jesus Christ is the one "correct" way of achieveing it. What makes you so sure of this? [Please pause to consider your answer.] Are you sure in your heart? If so, are you saying hearts can't be deceived? Are you sure in your brain? Cannot brains, too, be deceived? How do we not know that Satan succeeded in overthrowing God and banished God to a prison (Hell) and commanded all of God's children to worship him instead of indulging in the pleasures of life which God had granted them? Of course, I'm not proposing that this is true, it's just something for the open-minded to think about and the closed-minded to condemn me for saying.

Regardless of God, Satan, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, whoever you believe in, there is only one thing we can truly be sure of and that is those things which are good. I believe that all people possess the ability to discern right from wrong. The things we personally believe to be true and good, we must pursue, and nothing, not even God, should stand in your way of that. If you believe with all your heart that you were born to smoke crack, then by all means do it and be happy. But I don't think that anyone who smokes crack truly believes that, they are held captive by it and they know it. It destroys them and everyone around them.

One last remark before I call it quits, and I'm going to be vague here for legal reasons, by concealing my references to my own personal experience. One smokes marijuana on a regular basis, and finds that it alters not his own beliefs or judgment. It alters not his perception of reality, and it alters not his ability to reason. In doing so, it opens his mind to experiencing things in a way different from which he is used to. This is not a good thing always, but it does allow him to bring perspective to the way he viewed things while sober. To add to this, he also finds that taking mushrooms at times of mental confusion, grants him great enlightenment. When troubled and confused as to which path to take, mushrooms are found to be a highly enjoyable experience with friends. However, before the effect wears off, one should confine himself alone in a room for at least 2 hours, and meditate under the effect of the mushrooms. Using the perspective the drug can bring, it is possible to achieve clarity that has changed his life each time he has done it (4 times so far). It is, however, important not to abuse this method, as such a perspective can be dangerous. One must also not consume addictive drugs. I do not drink alcohol, I do not smoke cigarettes, I do not take any kind of regular medical supplements, I have never consumed crack, heroine, LSD, MDMA, methamphetamine, or any other such drug.

**Gokul43201** · Jun24-04, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by kat

We also find reference to Pharmakeia in Apollodorus:

"mian de echôn naun Aiaiêi nêsôi prosischei. tautên katôikei Kirkê, thugatêr Hêliou kai Persês, Aiêtou de adelphê, pantôn empeiros ousa pharmakôn." Or in English "With one ship he put in to the Aeaean isle. It was inhabited by Circe, a daughter of the Sun and of Perse, and a sister of Aeetes; skilled in all enchantments was she." this is a reference to the use of drugs for magical purposes.

Cool !

So were Odysseus' (Ulysses) men really turned into swine, or were they just on a bad trip (I think she gave them food or drink before turning them into pigs) ? I imagine this is the same Circe' ...

**Netme** · Jun28-04, 05:42 AM

Drugs like everything else in existence has a purpose. Recreation is not the purpose of any drug it is just humanities greed for pleasure and escape from reality that has created this trend.

~~Prometheus~~ · Jun28-04, 10:02 AM

hypnagogue,

I just want to say that you have made an excellent post.

~~ray b~~ · Jun28-04, 06:24 PM

some drugs are bad
some are mostly harmless
BUT ALL DRUG LAWS ARE BAD

**dave19903652** · Jul10-04, 11:10 AM

You can only judge this on what you think yourself. If you genuinely believe that taking drugs will get you somewhere then go ahead but I personally think you have to be stupid to take them as in my opinion they harm mind, body and if you believe in it soul.

~~Prometheus~~ · Jul12-04, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by dave19903652

You can only judge this on what you think yourself. If you genuinely believe that taking drugs will get you somewhere then go ahead but I personally think you have to be stupid to take them as in my opinion they harm mind, body and if you believe in it soul.

I hope that you never get sick or grow old, such that you need drugs for your condition. If so, you will have to consider yourself stupid, won't you.

You say that, in your opinion, drugs harm mind, body, and, if he believes in it, soul? Why do you believe that drugs harm the soul only if he believes in a soul? Doesn't your belief count?

**dave19903652** · Jul13-04, 12:05 PM

I meant the type of drugs that are usually illegal. Such as LSD, cocaine etc. I did not mean medicinal drugs. These are perfectly ok.

No, I wanted to expand my post to athiests as well as thiests and agnostics. If I said mind, body and soul I would get told that they don't believe in a religion, therefore my post is wrong. So to get round it I said mind, body and if you believe in it soul to apply to everyone. In my opinion drugs will harm the soul even if the person doesn't believe in the soul etc. but to that person it wouldn't matter as they don't believe it exists. I was just being diplomatic ok?

~~Prometheus~~ · Jul13-04, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by dave19903652

You can only judge this on what you think yourself. If you genuinely believe that taking drugs will get you somewhere then go ahead but I personally think you have to be stupid to take them as in my opinion they harm mind, body and if you believe in it soul.

I gather from this that you eat only the most healthy of food, and do the utmost in healthy exercise.

Surely you would never eat junk food, or do anything unhealthy, ever, under any circumstances. Right? If your diet were ever less than the utmost in health food, wouldn't you have to be stupid to eat such things, as do they not in your opinion harm mind, body, and soul?

Please do not attempt to justify ever breaching such an important rule, as any infraction at all is identical to taking drugs, the difference being at most a slight difference in degree.

**Overdose** · Jul13-04, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pergatory

Regardless of God, Satan, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, whoever you believe in, there is only one thing we can truly be sure of and that is those things which are good. I believe that all people possess the ability to discern right from wrong. The things we personally believe to be true and good, we must pursue, and nothing, not even God, should stand in your way of that. If you believe with all your heart that you were born to smoke crack, then by all means do it and be happy. But I don't think that anyone who smokes crack truly believes that, they are held captive by it and they know it. It destroys them and everyone around them.

I admire your common sense, its a pity alot of people dont seem to able to trust in their own judgement. I was reading a thread on this forum only the other day where someone had posted 'we shouldnt do drugs because buddah didnt approve of them' i mean really grow up and develop a mind of your own for gods sake.