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Fukushima Management and Government Performance

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W7VOA
#361
Dec16-11, 01:10 AM
P: 2
We've got someone. Thanks.
zapperzero
#362
Dec16-11, 02:24 AM
P: 1,044
http://www.asyura2.com/11/genpatu19/msg/378.html

Apparently NISA has decided to let TEPCO off the hook for any past, present or future releases of contaminated water into the ocean, reason cited being "emergency".

How can this be?

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NUCENG
#363
Dec16-11, 02:37 AM
Sci Advisor
P: 916
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
http://www.asyura2.com/11/genpatu19/msg/378.html

Apparently NISA has decided to let TEPCO off the hook for any past, present or future releases of contaminated water into the ocean, reason cited being "emergency".

How can this be?

link via ex-skf
It is consistent with the earlier decision that TEPCO does not own, nor is responsible, for land contamination. I don't think anyone on this forum found that to be proper. And at least for me, this is the same. What are they going to be held responsible for? Will the next release be that the government wants evacuees to refund their compensation back to TEPCO? This is getting a little bit BIZARRE!
zapperzero
#364
Dec16-11, 03:29 AM
P: 1,044
Quote Quote by NUCENG View Post
It is consistent with the earlier decision that TEPCO does not own, nor is responsible, for land contamination. I don't think anyone on this forum found that to be proper.
Umm.. that was just TEPCO's contention in court - it was rejected by the judge.

And at least for me, this is the same.
It is similar indeed and gives us a clue as to the earlier incident you mention - the brazen attitude from TEPCO seems now grounded in previous experience with toothless industry regulators - a run-of-the-mill judge proved to be less inclined to... accommodate.

What are they going to be held responsible for? Will the next release be that the government wants evacuees to refund their compensation back to TEPCO? This is getting a little bit BIZARRE!
It will also have international consequences I think - China has been making noises about Cesium ending up in "their" water already.
dontdomaths
#365
May7-12, 09:56 AM
P: 2
Enjoying the great conversations on this issue on pf.

Quote Quote by Caniche View Post
Silly sausage, nothing is set in stone. You might wish to reconsider that strange response ;all you were given was historical fact.
Just signed up to say your colourful narrative is not "historical fact".
Caniche
#366
May7-12, 05:56 PM
P: 106
Cheers for the colourful bit ,which fact do you refute? Espionage;forced labour or slavery?
dontdomaths
#367
May7-12, 11:59 PM
P: 2
Quote Quote by Caniche View Post
Cheers for the colourful bit ,which fact do you refute? Espionage;forced labour or slavery?
Thanks for not taking it as a troll attempt :)

I'm not refuting the specifics actually. Factually, feudalism can always be stretched to slavery, at some stage someone is going to be forced work. Yes there were prisoners and they might have been put to work and not paid. Espionage is common if not inherent function of all governments, after all not all of their activities can be overt. Obviously some of the most famous images of spys have been ninjas..

However- I'm arguing against this sort of simplicity. Summarily picking a few historical points in summary doesn't equate to "historical fact" in the way you were representing because it's neither balanced or encompassing. It's a coloured narrative because it's highlighting what suits to paint a certain characteristic to explain aspects of contemporary work practices.

This is of course only my opinion but since there were no other disenting views, and NUCENG seemed to be debating with you having accepted your point I thought I'd chime in.

I think the answer is simpler, and not racially or culturally based. People need money. You'll find the same thing happens in every country.

If that point doesn't make sense perhaps an inversion might demonstrate the point- Are you American? If so do you draw the same parallels to contemporary work practice in the US because America was in many ways built on slavery, espionage and forced labour? Probably not- because this too would be 3 things that are factual but not characteristic of the US (well apart from the slavery which as I understand it is something that culturally is still an issue).
gmax137
#368
May8-12, 07:40 AM
P: 855
Quote Quote by dontdomaths View Post
...Are you American? If so do you draw the same parallels to contemporary work practice in the US because America was in many ways built on slavery, espionage and forced labour? Probably not- because this too would be 3 things that are factual but not characteristic of the US (well apart from the slavery which as I understand it is something that culturally is still an issue).
You left out the genocide of the previous indigenous cultures.

Actually I'm agreeing with your point, I think it's well taken
tsutsuji
#369
May9-12, 01:57 PM
PF Gold
P: 1,220
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-...508/index.html A 17 year old boy was employed for 6 days at Fukushima Daiichi in April 2011, installing pipes, in violation of the law banning workers younger than 18 in nuclear power plants, and received a 1.92 mSv dose. This was found on 7 May 2012 by checking this worker's identity and age. Among the 23,000 who have worked at Daiichi since the accident, the identity of 6000 of them has not been confirmed yet, and more workers younger than 18 might be found among them.
tsutsuji
#370
May16-12, 06:21 AM
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P: 1,220
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-...516/index.html [from Tepco's press conference on 15 May 2012] At a study meeting in 2006, 2 years after the Sumatra tsunami, gathering the NISA, power companies and other participants, it was said that if a 14 m tsunami strikes Fukushima Daiichi, water would enter buildings through doors and service entrances and "there is a possibility that electric power supply equipments lose function". The NISA issued instructions such as making the seawater pumps watertight, and Tepco took this and other countermeasures but did not study countermeasures against water flowing into the buildings. Tepco comments that "as there was no certain evaluation that tsunamis higher than 10 m would strike, it was not followed by a study of countermeasures". Calculated estimates of tsunamis around 10 m high were also obtained during the three years that preceded the accident. It is becoming clear that several opportunities to revise countermeasures against tsunamis were missed.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-...20516_05-j.pdf documents from the 2006 study meeting

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120516a5.html "NISA, Tepco knew in '06 of Fukushima tsunami threat"

http://mainichi.jp/english/english/n...na007000c.html "TEPCO was warned of possible power loss from tsunami at nuclear plants in 2006"
tsutsuji
#371
May19-12, 10:37 AM
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P: 1,220
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22600907 Video of Tepco's press conference, 15 May 2012
http://genpatsu-watch.blogspot.com/2...125151800.html Transcript of Tepco's press conference, 15 May 2012

Matsumoto:

The next item: there have been news reports today of yesterday's Diet's investigation committee session, suspecting for example that although we had been warned by the NISA in Heisei 18 (2006) of the risk of tsunami-caused full loss of electric power, Tepco did not take the necessary countermeasures.

On this matter, let me narrate the factual relationships that we checked. As, retrospectively, not being prepared enough resulted in a major accident caused by this tsunami, we present our sincere apologies, but let me explain the situation at that time.

First of all, from January to July 2006, the NISA and JNES organised a floods study group. It was attended by the Federation of Electric Power and by electric power companies including Tepco in quality of observers.

That study group examined questions such as the vulnerability of the design of nuclear power plants in the United States against internal inundations, or the accident where a seawater pump at an Indian nuclear power plant was inundated due to the Indian Ocean off the coast of Sumatra tsunami.

Then, this brings us to October 2006, the NISA held a preliminary meeting on the planning of earthquake resistance back-checks to be imposed on the Federation of Electric Power, and during that meeting, the NISA presented instructions on how to deal with tsunamis.

It was said that the Society of Civil Engineers' method being conservative enough, there is no problem in using that method. However, concerning tsunamis, as we are dealing with a natural phenomenon, one must think that phenomenons beyond design basis are possible, and in the case the design basis is exceeded, emergency seawater pumps lose function, resulting in core damage, so we received a demand to take concrete countermeasures at the plants where the margin against tsunamis is small.

Later, this brings us to April 2007, the Federation of Electric Power replied to the aforementioned NISA's requests, and we at Tepco submitted a report mentioning that according to the Society of Civil Engineers' method, the margin of Fukushima Daiichi's emergency seawater pumps against tsunamis is extremely small and saying that we will take voluntary countermeasures.

Concretely, we reported that we would study the watertighting of motors and electric operated equipments. At that time we did not receive additional instructions from the NISA, but in continuation, from that time on, both we and the NISA were aware that it was necessary to make a probabilistic evaluation of tsunami heights and to study the tsunami hazard.

The factual relationships being as I explained, at that time at the floods study group we did not study only the emergency seawater pumps but also an hypothesis where the buildings' site is inundated.

Of course, if the buildings' site is inundated, water flows in through entrances, and the electric supply equipments located inside the buildings get inundated and lose function. Well, in some sense it is an obvious result, and it does not constitute a new knowledge of a new risk that would have been pointed out by the NISA.

For us, it was an obvious awareness that we were holding. The study contained in that report consisted in examining what happens if a tsunami exceeds the buildings' ground level, regardless whether it is possible with a real tsunami or regardless the probability of such an event.

Concerning the elevation of the plant, we performed the study in accordance with the Society of Civil Engineer's tsunami evaluation method, and both the NISA and we evaluated that the approach with this evaluation guideline was conservative enough. For that reason, with this result of tsunami height evaluation[1], we thought at that time that safety was being secured.

However, at that time in October 2006, a protective wall was surrounding the motors of the emergency seawater pumps located at an elevation of 4 m at Fukushima Daiichi, but as the margin against the design basis tsunami of 5.7 m was small, we received a demand from the NISA to take concrete countermeasures, and we began to study the watertighting of the electric operated equipments.

As a result, we do not confirm the news reports that say that we received a written instruction from the NISA or that the NISA requested that we take countermeasures against the risk of full loss of AC electric power resulting from an inundation of the buildings. That's all from me for today.

[1]The evaluation according to the Society of Civil Engineer's method is O.P. + 5.6 m for Fukushima Daiichi unit 5, according to the last column of the table at the bottom of http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-...20516_05-j.pdf page 3/3.
zapperzero
#372
May19-12, 01:21 PM
P: 1,044
Quote Quote by tsutsuji View Post
Of course, if the buildings' site is inundated, water flows in through entrances, and the electric supply equipments located inside the buildings get inundated and lose function. Well, in some sense it is an obvious result, and it does not constitute a new knowledge of a new risk that would have been pointed out by the NISA.

For us, it was an obvious awareness that we were holding. The study contained in that report consisted in examining what happens if a tsunami exceeds the buildings' ground level, regardless whether it is possible with a real tsunami or regardless the probability of such an event.

Concerning the elevation of the plant, we performed the study in accordance with the Society of Civil Engineer's tsunami evaluation method, and both the NISA and we evaluated that the approach with this evaluation guideline was conservative enough. For that reason, with this result of tsunami height evaluation[1], we thought at that time that safety was being secured.

However, at that time in October 2006, a protective wall was surrounding the motors of the emergency seawater pumps located at an elevation of 4 m at Fukushima Daiichi, but as the margin against the design basis tsunami of 5.7 m was small, we received a demand from the NISA to take concrete countermeasures, and we began to study the watertighting of the electric operated equipments.
Way to dig one's own grave, there.
tsutsuji
#373
May22-12, 09:39 AM
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P: 1,220
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22621594 Video of Tepco's press conference, 16 May 2012
http://genpatsu-watch.blogspot.com/2...-1880bqkg.html Transcript of Tepco's press conference, 16 May 2012

Matsumoto:

Next item: we have distributed to you a series of documents [ http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-...20516_05-j.pdf ]. One of them is about the floods working group and the situation of the response to it, and the other one consists in an A3 colour copy entitled "Results of the studies of the external flood working group".

Yesterday we explained the factual relationships in answer to the news reports that followed the suspicions at the day before yesterday's Diet investigation committee session, such as the suspicion that we did not take enough countermeasures against the flood situation in 2006 (Heisei 18). But that was an oral explanation, and today we can provide this explanation as a document.

In combination, as the NISA allowed us to do so, we can provide you with the last documents that we received at the floods working group.

First, please have a look at the A4 document. The floods working group was held from January to July 2006 by the NISA and JNES and it was about topics such as the vulnerability problems of nuclear power plants in the United States, or the flooding of seawater pumps at a nuclear power plant in India during the off the coast of Sumatra tsunami of that time. The Federation of electric power and the the power companies attended as observers.

The next paragraph is about the situation of the studies at the working group. The assumption was a flooding of 1 m above ground for an unlimited time. As a consequence, needless to say, when the grounds and the buildings are flooded, the result obtained is that water flows in through building entrances, and electric power supply equipments lose function.

However, this was not based on probabilities or on the possibility of occurence of such a tsunami in real life. Our opinion is that this was nothing more than a check of consequences performed as a study. The result of the study is provided in the A3 document for Fukushima Daiichi unit 5 and Tohoku Electric's Tomari units 1 and 2 as representative cases.

In the conditions of the study, it is noted for Fukushima Daiichi unit 5 that the water intake area, near the water intake is at an elevation of O.P. 4.5 m, and that the level, above that, of each service building, of the turbine building and the reactor building is O.P. 13 m.

In Table 1, as I previously said, when a 1 m above ground tsunami is assumed (for Fukushima Daiichi unit 5, that makes an O.P. 14 m assumed tsunami) the seawater pumps, the reactor building, the turbine building and the service buildings each receive an an x-mark [used to indicate an incorrect answer in a test, etc.].

Also, for Tomari units 1 and 2, as you can see, as the ground floor is at 10 m, adding 1 m makes a T.P. 11 m tsunami, and the situation is that the recirculation pump buildings, the reactor buildings, and the turbine buildings etc. receive an x-mark.

In the right half of the page we attached the pictures made at the time of the study concerning the facts checked at Fukushima Daiichi unit 5 and Tomari unit 1.

On the back of the page, it is about an examination of the situation in the case water actually enters into the buildings. Both at Fukushima Daiichi unit 5 and at Tomari units 1 and 2, in the case buildings are flooded, if water enters through the service doors for large equipments, those areas get flooded.

Results obtained for each electric power company have been summarized in Table 2 in the bottom right part of the page under the title "Consequences on outdoor equipments of a grounds level + 1 m, beyond expectation tsunami". The results marked with ※ are those of bad consequences on electric supply equipments in the case of a tsunami unlimited in time at Tomari units 1 and 2, Onagawa unit 2, Fukushima Daiichi unit 5 and Hamaoka unit 4.

Let's go back to the A4 sheet. Such a floods working group was organized, and when, in October 2006, the NISA held a preliminary meeting on the planning of earthquake resistance back-checks, it was said that for tsunamis, being conservative enough, the Society of Civil Engineer's method was OK.

First there was a talk about the Society of Civil Engineer's method. However, after that, we received a request to study concrete countermeasures for the plants where the margin against tsunamis, high waves and backwashes is small, because when the level obtained by the Society of Civil Engineer's method is exceeded, the emergency seawater pumps that are located in low locations lose function and cause core damage. Also, at that time, the Federation of electric power was orally told to additionally transmit this request to each company's top ranking management.

At Tepco, as it was requested by the NISA, this information was shared up to the head of the Nuclear Power & Plant Siting Division. However our understanding was that this request concerned the flooding of emergency seawater pumps, and not the flooding of the buildings or the measures that could have prevented the different consequences of the present [11 March 2011] tsunami.

Now the last paragraph: All the tsunami heights were to be evaluated using the Society of Civil Engineer's method, this was to be reflected in the earthquake resistance back-checks and it was approved by the NISA.

As a consequence, in application of the Society of Civil Engineer's method, we conducted a conservative evaluation, and at that time we thought that the nuclear power plant's safety was being secured.

Also, the above being explained, the opinions of the Headquarters for Earthquake Research Promotion [ http://www.jishin.go.jp/main/index-e.html ] and the publications about the Jogan earthquake were concurring on the necessity of a new wave source model, and we worked on responses such as a revision of the Society of Civil Engineer's method in parallel with the study of the watertighting of emergency seawater pumps.

This was the explanations provided yesterday summarized again today in the form of documents. Thank you.
Yamanote
#374
May22-12, 01:33 PM
P: 68
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Way to dig one's own grave, there.
Right.

Thanks tsutsuji-san for translating!
Nature doesn't care about man-made papers and what Tepco thought or not. They can discuss this forth and back - it is too late now, they saved the money for making the plant tsunami-proof and now they have to face the consequences. And hiding behind papers doesn't even fix a single problem.
zapperzero
#375
May23-12, 01:45 AM
P: 1,044
Quote Quote by tsutsuji View Post
However, this was not based on probabilities or on the possibility of occurence of such a tsunami in real life. Our opinion is that this was nothing more than a check of consequences performed as a study.

[...]

At Tepco, as it was requested by the NISA, this information was shared up to the head of the Nuclear Power & Plant Siting Division. However our understanding was that this request concerned the flooding of emergency seawater pumps, and not the flooding of the buildings or the measures that could have prevented the different consequences of the present [11 March 2011] tsunami.
Tsutsuji, how does this work in Japanese? Would you say the man is arguing for institutional blindness? That it is a normal condition? Am I correct in summarizing what he said as "we saw the possibility of a flood only as a paper exercise with no real-life consequences and furthermore we only cared about the pumps"?
zapperzero
#376
May23-12, 02:40 AM
P: 1,044
With apologies for those of you who have seen this before:

Improvement of Environment around Monitoring Post of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (Result Report)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushi...20420_07-e.pdf

Measures are implemented so that each MP shows less than 10 μSv/h.
Regarding MP-2 that has relatively high radiation dose, the trees within 30 m radius from the MP are trimmed and surface
soils are removed. Regarding MP-3~5 that has relatively low radiation, the trees within 20 m radium from each MP are
trimmed and surface soils within its fence are removed. Regarding MP-6~7, the trees within 20 m radium from each MP are
trimmed and surface soils within its fence are removed, and shield walls are installed around each detector, because removal
of surface soil and tree trimming could be widely implemented. Regarding MP-8, tree trimming is not implemented because
there is few nearby forest, and surface soils within its fence are removed, and a shield wall is installed. Regarding MP-1, we
decided not to implement any countermeasure because the MP showed 4 μSv/h.
This is all done, presumably, to reduce background "noise". I wonder, though, how one can compare readings from detectors which are shielded differently. What is the point at which detectors cease detecting anything useful, if one continues to add shielding?

Why, if the idea is to measure the air and ONLY the air, is there not a mobile sampling unit used, instead of fixed detectors?
MadderDoc
#377
May23-12, 06:37 AM
MadderDoc's Avatar
P: 698
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
With apologies for those of you who have seen this before:

Improvement of Environment around Monitoring Post of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (Result Report)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushi...20420_07-e.pdf



This is all done, presumably, to reduce background "noise". I wonder, though, how one can compare readings from detectors which are shielded differently. What is the point at which detectors cease detecting anything useful, if one continues to add shielding?

Why, if the idea is to measure the air and ONLY the air, is there not a mobile sampling unit used, instead of fixed detectors?
This is perhaps a bit too technical to be on topic, however since it could leave some with doubts of radiation monitoring management I hope mentors will allow it or move post to the more appropriate tehcnical thread.

The monitoring posts are there strictly to be able to detect whether radiation dose increases abnormally at the boundary of the site. The idea is to be able to detect abnormal emissions from the plant. In the present context, that implies being able to detect radiation dose variations down to about 1 microSv/h. However some of the instruments of the monitoring posts were in a 100 microSv/h environment due to deposition, and a change of 1 microSv/h would be within the imprecision of their readings. IOW, as it were, the instruments were useless for their purpose, while after the intervention, they are now able to serve it. With all due respect to results of mobile units, having useful fixed measuring points is a technical must, as is your ability to transmit a message about it to the public and be credible.
tsutsuji
#378
Jun4-12, 07:22 AM
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P: 1,220
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Tsutsuji, how does this work in Japanese? Would you say the man is arguing for institutional blindness? That it is a normal condition? Am I correct in summarizing what he said as "we saw the possibility of a flood only as a paper exercise with no real-life consequences and furthermore we only cared about the pumps"?

I translate another bit of the same press conference. Matsumoto insists that all tsunamis higher than the seawater pumps do not necessarily rise so high that even the air-cooled generators are unusable. It sort of means that the air-cooled generators provided a [false?] sense of safety for the case when the seawater pumps are drowned.

http://genpatsu-watch.blogspot.fr/20...-1880bqkg.html Transcript of Tepco's press conference, 16 May 2012

Freelance journalist Kino:

Is that to say that as it [how information is shared with higher ups] is decided on a case by case basis, in that case, the countermeasures including sealing [the seawater pumps ,etc.] were not important enough to be shared with the company president ?

Matsumoto:

Rather than "important", I think the point is that the problem could be solved within the Nuclear Power & Plant Siting Division. Also if you let me say a few words about Fukushima Daiichi, as you know, there are two air-cooled diesel generators located at 10 m on the units 1,2,3,4 side. Also at units 5 and 6 which were the topic of the study, there is also one air-cooled diesel generator.

For that reason, we were judging that even in the rare event when seawater pumps are flooded and become unusable, in the case when a tsunami does not reach the buildings' ground level as in the present [March 2011] tsunami, blackout does not occur as a consequence of the availability of air-cooled diesel generators. In that situation, we were not thinking that the sealing of electric operated equipments was a matter that had to be solved within one or two years.


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