What Is an Electric Field 4-Vector?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the electric field 4-vector, its definition, and its distinction from the traditional electric field vector. Participants explore the mathematical properties and implications of the electric field 4-vector in the context of special relativity and its relationship to other physical quantities like 4-momentum and 4-force.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces a web page that defines the electric field 4-vector and discusses its relation to the energy measured by an observer, suggesting it can be viewed as an invariant scalar.
  • Another participant notes that the antisymmetry of the electromagnetic field tensor implies that the electric field 4-vector can be described by only three components, which they argue clarifies its relation to the electric field vector taught in introductory classes.
  • A different participant challenges the reasoning behind the claim that the electric field can be described by three numbers, comparing it to the 4-force and emphasizing that 4-force requires four quantities to be defined.
  • One participant expresses concern that many people confuse the electric field 4-vector with the electric field itself, highlighting the distinction between these two quantities.
  • Another participant elaborates that while the electric field 4-vector has four components, the condition E*U=0 provides one constraint, leaving three degrees of freedom for the components in the observer's frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the representation of the electric field 4-vector, particularly regarding the number of components required to describe it. There is no consensus on the implications of the antisymmetry of the electromagnetic field tensor or the relationship between the electric field 4-vector and the electric field vector.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the understanding of 4-vectors and their properties in different coordinate systems, which may not be universally shared among participants.

pmb_phy
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
1
I made a new web page to describe/define the electric field 4-vector to someone. I thought I'd post a link to that page here. Some of you might find it interesting since most people only think of the electric field as being only the components of a 2-tensor. See

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/sr/efield_4vector.htm

This is similar to the energy measured by observer defined as follows

Let U_obs be the 4-velocity of an observer. Let P be the 4-momentum of a particle. Then the scalar product of the two is called E_obs = energy measured by observer

E_obs = P*U_obs

In some sense of the term this can be viewed as an invariant scalar. In any case E_obs is a tensor of rank zero and is therefore a scalar by definition. Like wise E^a = F^ab U_a is the electric field 4-vector as measured by the observer whose 4-velocity is U.

Pete
 
Physics news on Phys.org
It might also be helpful to note that since F is antisymmetric, Ea Ua = 0. So E is adequately described by only three components, which makes it more clear how it is related to the electric field vector used in introductory classes.
 
Stingray said:
It might also be helpful to note that since F is antisymmetric, Ea Ua = 0. So E is adequately described by only three components, which makes it more clear how it is related to the electric field vector used in introductory classes.
I do't follow you. Why do you hold that since E*U = 0 that E can be described by three numbers? Take 4-force - F*U = 0 for a rest mass preserving force, yet 4-force requires 4 quantities to be defined.

Anyway ...

FYI - Due to recent observations elsewhere it appears that the notion of an electric field 4-vector is quite difficult, if not impossible, for some people to grasp. They continuosly confuse the electric field 4-vector with the electric field. These are two distinct quantities which are related to each other.

Its similar to 4-momentum. Had one only known of the term "momentum" as in 3-momentum and known of P = m0U only as the energy-momentum 4-vector then these same people might also be confused had they heard the term "momentum 4-vector". Momentum 4-vector is a 4-vector and is a different quantity than "momentum" (i.e. 3-momentum). A similar thing applies to the electric field 4-vector. This is a 4-vector but is a verfy different thing that the electric field 3-vector.


Pete
 
pmb_phy said:
I do't follow you. Why do you hold that since E*U = 0 that E can be described by three numbers? Take 4-force - F*U = 0 for a rest mass preserving force, yet 4-force requires 4 quantities to be defined.

In a general coordinate system, it does of course require 4 numbers at each point. But in the frame of the observer, it might as well be a 3-vector. His (naturally defined) time component is always zero. So there are really only three functions. The 4-vector in an arbitrary coordinate system can be written down in terms of these three components by using a coordinate transformation.

Alternatively, E has four unknowns, and E*U=0 is one equation that is given for them. There are therefore three degrees of freedom still remaining once you take into account that constraint.

The same remarks apply for your (rest) mass-preserving force.
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 59 ·
2
Replies
59
Views
8K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 45 ·
2
Replies
45
Views
9K