Why Do Some Functions Lack Algebraic Integrals Despite Being Continuous?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasons why some continuous functions lack algebraic integrals, despite being differentiable. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of integration, the differences between integrability and differentiability, and the challenges associated with finding antiderivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express curiosity about the theory of integration and why certain continuous functions do not have algebraic integrals, questioning the completeness of current mathematical frameworks.
  • One participant distinguishes between functions that lack integrals and those that lack elementary integrals, suggesting that many functions are integrable even if they do not have simple expressions for their integrals.
  • Another participant notes that differentiating functions is generally easier due to the chain rule, while integration is more complex as it requires reconstructing a function from its derivative.
  • There is a discussion about the asymmetry in defining derivatives and antiderivatives, with one participant highlighting that the derivative has a clear formula while the antiderivative is defined more abstractly.
  • Some participants propose that while integration can be defined through limits and sums, the process of finding antiderivatives remains more challenging compared to differentiation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that integration is more complex than differentiation and that there are distinctions between different types of integrability. However, there is no consensus on the implications of these differences or the completeness of current mathematical understanding regarding integrals.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the limitations of current mathematical concepts and the definitions of integrals, particularly regarding functions that do not have algebraic representations of their integrals.

Lyuokdea
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I'm just curious as to the theory of integration, and why, given continuity and differentiability, all functions have somewhat easy and very calculatable dirivatives, while there are many functions which exist that either do not have a algebraic integral. Why is it that our math works perfectly and via set rules one way, but not the other. Is it something similar to all numbers having a square, but not all numbers having an integer square root. Obviously, that's not a mathematically sound way of saying it, nor are the two concepts really related, but I hope you understand where I'm going with that. Have there been any proofs as to why integration fails in certain circumstances. I understand that there are some functions, such as

[tex]\int_a^b e^{x^2} dx[/tex]

that have no integral, but as they do have some calculatable area under them, shouldn't they have some integral of some form, Is it just that we lack the math to express the form? I know there is a theorem that there can be no integral for the above function, but is that just for our current concept of mathematics, otherwise how can a function without an integral really exist?

Edit: Thanks graphic7
~Lyuokdea
 
Last edited:
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Lyuokdea said:
Edit: Latex did a pretty bad job with that equation it should be int(e^x^2)dx

~Lyuokdea

[tex]\int_a^b e^{x^2} dx[/tex]
 
There's a big difference between "this function doesn't have an integral" and "this function doesn't have an elementary integral".


The fact is, it's a lot easier for a given function to be integrable than it is for it to be differentiable -- any piecewise continuous function is integrable! Every differentiable function is integrable, but not vice versa.
 
what makes differentiation so easy is the chain rule. most complicated functions are just compositions of other functions, and with the chain rule (together with the product rule), differentiating these is a straightforward procedure. integration, on the other hand, involves finding the function that when differentiated gives the original function, and is general much more difficult.

the only analogy i can think of at the moment is that differentiating is like taking a picture and cutting it into shapes to make a puzzle, while integrating is like putting the puzzle back together. the first is easy, the second is usually harder. if you just start with a random collection of puzzle peices, chances are they won't form a nice, pretty picture (elementary function). but any picture can be made into a puzzle. its not great, but you get the idea.
 
Another important point is that the derivative of f(x) is defined by a formula (specifically [itex]lim_{h->0}\frac{f(x+h)-f(x)}{h}[/itex] while the anti-derivative of f(x)is defined only as "the function that has f(x) as its derivative".

This "asymmetry" is generally true of "direct" and "inverse" problems: given the formula y= (x3- 3x+1)4x+1, the "direct" problem "if x= 2 what is y?" is easy while the "inverse" problem "if y= 2 what is x?" is , much harder.
 
thats true, although i could say that integration is defined by the formula:

[tex]\int_a^b f(x) dx = \lim_{\triangle x \rightarrow 0} \sum_{n=0}^{\frac{(b-a)}{\triangle x}} f(a+n \triangle x) \cdot \triangle x[/tex]

however, its probably easier to invert the derivative then to use this.
 

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