
#1
Jun2811, 01:14 AM

P: 2,454

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but would a proton falling into a black hole experience tidal forces. If the proton is like a wave could we stretch the wave out, that is probably really bad wording. Or does the quantum of energy move all together?




#2
Jun2811, 10:45 AM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,500

A proton is a composite object with quarks inside, and the proton has a size, about 1 fm=10^15 m, which is essentially the typical distance between the quarks. In the frame of an observer hovering just outside the event horizon, the proton falls past at a velocity close to c, so that the de Broglie wavelength corresponding to its centerofmass momentum is very short  much shorter than the size of the proton itself. In a frame comoving with the proton, its de Broglie wavelength is infinite. Because a proton has a finite size, it would certainly experience tidal forces that would tend to distort its shape, i.e., cause the correlations among the quarks to change, probably giving it an ellipsoidal shape. However, tidal forces have less effect on smaller objects, and a proton is very small, so I think for any astrophysical black hole the effect would be much too small to measure.




#3
Jun2811, 01:57 PM

C. Spirit
Sci Advisor
Thanks
P: 4,925

EDIT: yeah...nevermind 



#4
Jun2811, 02:13 PM

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PF Gold
P: 4,862

proton falling into a Black hole? 



#5
Jun2811, 02:16 PM

C. Spirit
Sci Advisor
Thanks
P: 4,925





#6
Jun2811, 05:07 PM

P: 2,454

No but it would be interesting to consider tidal forces on a photon.
@ bcrowell, How can you tell me a proton has a finite size if its wave. If we can I would like to discuss how the tidal forces would effect the photon. 



#7
Jun2811, 05:55 PM

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#8
Jun2811, 06:09 PM

P: 2,454

I have self taught myself a little bit about QM out of Griffiths . I know what a momentum operator is, Quantum harmonic oscillator . Spin matrices . But still a very elementary understanding of it. But I know a little bit.




#9
Jun2811, 06:18 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 5,500

So for example if you ask why an elephant doesn't have observable wave properties, the answer is that P is on the order of 10^{3} in SI units, so the wavelength is on the order of 10^{33} meters. The wavelength is a gazillion times smaller than the elephant itself. 



#10
Jun2811, 06:24 PM

P: 2,454

ok , thanks for explaining that .




#11
Jun2811, 07:34 PM

Emeritus
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PF Gold
P: 5,500

I thought a little more about the photon version, and I don't think it makes sense to analyze that one in terms of tidal stresses. It's not a bound system that can have internal stresses. And whereas in the case of the proton there is a natural frame of reference in which to measure its elongation (the comoving frame), there is no comoving frame in the case of the photon.
I think this is similar to a contrast that comes up in the case of cosmological redshifts. Photon wavetrains lengthen over cosmological time, and this can be interpreted in terms of the expansion of space itself as they travel through it. But protons, solar systems, etc., do not undergo any significant cosmological expansion. 


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