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Bomb blast in Oslo; PM's office building targeted.
Actually, Breivik is willing so far to speak of everything EXCEPT revealing accomplices.
He demands the abdication of the government in order to disclose other terror cells, and as of today, he has not given in on that issue.
I just realized I misinterpreted rhody’s question (in a hurry and slightly 'lost in translation'), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) the facts... sorry...
Anyhow, we don’t know for sure if Breivik is mad, nuts, schizophrenic, crazy, brain-damaged, etc; but we do know that this guy is NOT normal, by any standards. Besides the horrific massacre committed, he demanded the King to resign and the PM to leave and that he should be appointed Minister of Defense, before talking to the police.
Then he talked without halt for 9 hrs...
Some main points the experts made (based mostly on news reports and them examining his 1500 page rambling manifesto) and no direct contact was:
a: Has narcissistic tendencies (I agree), speaks of using makeup and looking your best before addressing the media
b: Wants to be the center of attention (I agree)
c: Methodical and meticulous in his planning (mention was made to him acquiring the fertilizer, and how it easily a red flag could have been raised) (he rented a farm house in the country about a month before the attack to quietly assemble his truck bomb)
d: Has long term goal of inspiring others to continue his cause even as he is placed in prision
e: Toward the end of the program it said contrary to news reports he tended to be a loner, and was considered "odd" by others who knew him.
f: There was a confusing report by one of the survivors who asked him to spare his life while he shot others on the beach, that he passed him by, and later it said this same person survived by hiding under the dead bodies of others. I empathize with his account, but was a bit surprised this inconsistency slipped through. I DVR'd the program and will watch it again to see if I missed something, or got my facts incorrect.
Overall, I would give the program a B .. B+. Definitely not of "60 Minutes" quality, but decent. We won't know much more until world class experts are allowed access to him.
Rhody...
The biggest punishment IMO that he can receive at the moment is not to be allowed to address the media. This is what he longs for. I still have a hard time believing he could look people in the eye up close and personal and simply execute them, there is nothing more horrendous than that, at least not to me.
I just realized I misinterpreted rhody’s question (in a hurry and slightly 'lost in translation'), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) the facts... sorry...
Anyhow, we don’t know for sure if Breivik is mad, nuts, schizophrenic, crazy, brain-damaged, etc; but we do know that this guy is NOT normal, by any standards. Besides the horrific massacre committed, he demanded the King to resign and the PM to leave and that he should be appointed Minister of Defense, before talking to the police.
Then he talked without halt for 9 hrs...
Yes hes not normal. I think he probably has problems with empathy, like he is unable to imagine the suffering he would cause. Maybe he is able but thinks the end justifies the means. As for his demands, he might have simply expressed this as something he wants, as in "i wish the king and government resigned, the country would be better". That wouldnt be that weird, if you ask any person on the street about what kind of government they would like they would end up with something similar.
Hmm romantic... thanks, I think I like it... maybe better than being a doomsday hysterics, slightly out of touch with reality.
Quote by MarcoD
The sociological definition of fascism is the believe that since we are stuck in a social darwinistic struggle between countries/ ideologies/ races that it's best to organize society as a monoculture with a military build-up. It is easy to see why Germany, Japan, and Italy fell for that trap.
And you’re calling me a racist???
Quote by MarcoD
Social darwinism is a compelling belief. You need to kick most of population and certainly the military several times in the head to see the failure of the argument.
... a lot of kicking and failures ...
Quote by MarcoD
When it comes to gassing: There are a lot of references in Breivik's document towards the Netherlands. I can only conclude given recent events that the Netherlands have become an exporter of bigot irrational fears, I have some of those Oslo's kids blood on my hand.
Too 'melodramatic' and actually wrong, Breivik’s most frequent contacts (abroad) were Swedish neo-nazis on different forums on the net, where among other things bombs was the topic. The police are looking for two Swedes (extreme rightwing) that (on FB) have mentioned they work (one as 'co-director') on Breivik’s (fake) company Geofarm.
Breivik ordered 150 kg aluminum powder for the deadly bombings in Oslo, from Wroclaw in Poland, delivered to Karlstad in Sweden (not far from where I live), and he went to Karlstad to get the delivery personally.
With your 'logic', I should not only have "blood on my hands", but also being 'accomplice'. But I prefer not use this kind of melodramatic setting – it will not help the victims or their families.
Quote by MarcoD
The (very moderate) rightwing party in Norway grew after Breivik's attack.
Wrong again. Breivik have been a member of the rightwing Fremskrittspartiet until 2006. This is of course NOT a positive factor, and the party has serious trouble with their 'image'. Instead (as arildno points out) Arbeiderpartiet (Labour) has a boost of 10%.
Quote by MarcoD
The Dutch society also fails to tackle rightwing populism at the moment. As a society, we have moved over the last decade from tolerance towards loudmouth bigotry, irrational fears, and we are now starting -though in an innocent manner- to take away basic human rights from Islamic parts of our population. I have been wary of that and am very angry since what I predicted, though in a different form, now happened in Norway.
What on earth are you talking about!? Take away basic human rights?? Please, you have to back up these kind hysterical comments with some kind of reliable sources – otherwise it’s a violation of PF rules and a contributor to the "irrational fears" you’re trying to prevent.
Quote by MarcoD
You think that we won't end up gassing our muslims?
Absolutely, anyone who thinks we will has exactly the same mental problems as Behring Breivik...
Quote by MarcoD
The trend is straightforward towards a new form of national-socialism.
Really?? Turn on your TV tonight and watch 16,000 policemen in London, fighting a slightly different "trend"...
I.e., when I talk to you (US I assume) about hate speech, you know exactly what I mean and what will come of it; even Evo's response is in a sense very US. Most people in the Netherlands just allow it at the moment and make fun with it.
Sweden actually, and yes we do have a lot of neo-nazis here, in the streets and in a 'lighter version' (in suites) in the parliament. But this far, they are a minority that gets their a*s kicked, both in the streets and parliament. Anyhow, I think we have a fairly good reason to laugh at them:
Quote by MarcoD
There is little to assume that we will move away from rightwing populism, most people are unaware the threats involved. What I see at the moment in the Netherlands is a state of collective denial, we didn't pull the trigger so were not in anyway responsible. If I were to say that we are moving towards national-socialism, people would laugh or partly agree and reason that this time is different and it's worth it.
You got to realize that this horrendous tragedy was a *BLOW* for the extreme rightwing, neo-nazis, etc.
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Quote by rhody
Some main points the experts made (based mostly on news reports and them examining his 1500 page rambling manifesto) and no direct contact was:
a: Has narcissistic tendencies (I agree), speaks of using makeup and looking your best before addressing the media
b: Wants to be the center of attention (I agree)
c: Methodical and meticulous in his planning (mention was made to him acquiring the fertilizer, and how it easily a red flag could have been raised) (he rented a farm house in the country about a month before the attack to quietly assemble his truck bomb)
d: Has long term goal of inspiring others to continue his cause even as he is placed in prision
e: Toward the end of the program it said contrary to news reports he tended to be a loner, and was considered "odd" by others who knew him.
f: There was a confusing report by one of the survivors who asked him to spare his life while he shot others on the beach, that he passed him by, and later it said this same person survived by hiding under the dead bodies of others. I empathize with his account, but was a bit surprised this inconsistency slipped through. I DVR'd the program and will watch it again to see if I missed something, or got my facts incorrect.
Overall, I would give the program a B .. B+. Definitely not of "60 Minutes" quality, but decent. We won't know much more until world class experts are allowed access to him.
Rhody...
The biggest punishment IMO that he can receive at the moment is not to be allowed to address the media. This is what he longs for. I still have a hard time believing he could look people in the eye up close and personal and simply execute them, there is nothing more horrendous than that, at least not to me.
Concerning f):
I believe Adrian (who I think this was) didn't believe he would be so absurdly lucky that Breivik would spare him again if he returned, and crawled under some bodies to hide.
However, in the panicked, adrenalin-rushed state of these poor youths, it is more than probable that many of them suffered auditory/optical hallucinations to put them in some type of survival hyperdrive.
Several have, for example, said that their conception of time was extremely inconsistent; sometimes it moved slowly,at other times extremely fast.
One girl who had been swimming quite some time asserted that she could hear Breivik laugh as he aimed bullets at her.
She might well have been out of hearing range at that point, or possibly not.
Some main points the experts made (based mostly on news reports and them examining his 1500 page rambling manifesto) and no direct contact was:
a: Has narcissistic tendencies (I agree), speaks of using makeup and looking your best before addressing the media
Yup, and he gotten the right to always dress in red when going to court (if I was in charge I would have punched his nose red and said – here you go!)
Quote by rhody
b: Wants to be the center of attention (I agree)
Absolutely, some form of (severe) megalomania.
Quote by rhody
c: Methodical and meticulous in his planning (mention was made to him acquiring the fertilizer, and how it easily a red flag could have been raised) (he rented a farm house in the country about a month before the attack to quietly assemble his truck bomb)
The sad thing is, the police had him 'on the radar' in mars, when he ordered 150 kg aluminum powder from Poland...
Quote by rhody
d: Has long term goal of inspiring others to continue his cause even as he is placed in prision
Yup, but probably more delusions than anything else, in the manifest he has placed "coded" GPS coordinates for new targets around Europe, which shows the level of madness, since it’s easy for anyone to find the "code" (in URL’s), hence his "important targets" = useless crap...
Quote by rhody
e: Toward the end of the program it said contrary to news reports he tended to be a loner, and was considered "odd" by others who knew him.
Yup, as a member of Fremskrittspartiet he hardly spoke at all. His father had problems reaching him, and they haven’t seen each other for 15 years.
Quote by rhody
f: There was a confusing report by one of the survivors who asked him to spare his life while he shot others on the beach, that he passed him by, and later it said this same person survived by hiding under the dead bodies of others. I empathize with his account, but was a bit surprised this inconsistency slipped through.
This part is really confusing and horrific... imagine walking around for 1½+ hrs and in cold blood execute teenagers praying for their life... using dumdum bullets... unless he was heavily drugged, this is the proof beyond any doubts for full-blown madness...
Quote by rhody
The biggest punishment IMO that he can receive at the moment is not to be allowed to address the media. This is what he longs for. I still have a hard time believing he could look people in the eye up close and personal and simply execute them, there is nothing more horrendous than that, at least not to me.
Yes hes not normal. I think he probably has problems with empathy, like he is unable to imagine the suffering he would cause. Maybe he is able but thinks the end justifies the means. As for his demands, he might have simply expressed this as something he wants, as in "i wish the king and government resigned, the country would be better". That wouldnt be that weird, if you ask any person on the street about what kind of government they would like they would end up with something similar.
I get your point, but if you put the timeline and everything this moron has done, it does not make any sense. How many mass murderers have requested to be appointed Minister of Defense, as a first demand to cooperate? Has it ever happened before??
Concerning f):
I believe Adrian (who I think this was) didn't believe he would be so absurdly lucky that Breivik would spare him again if he returned, and crawled under some bodies to hide.
However, in the panicked, adrenalin-rushed state of these poor youths, it is more than probable that many of them suffered auditory/optical hallucinations to put them in some type of survival hyperdrive.
Several have, for example, said that their conception of time was extremely inconsistent; sometimes it moved slowly,at other times extremely fast.
One girl who had been swimming quite some time asserted that she could hear Breivik laugh as he aimed bullets at her.
She might well have been out of hearing range at that point, or possibly not.
Arildno,
I was thinking the same thing when the survivor said he saw Breivik point his weapon at him and he pleaded, "Please don't kill me". So the question in my mind is, did Breivik really spare him ? Did the young man really speak to Breivik ? It doesn't really matter at this point, but I agree with you extreme stress can do funny things to your memory. When I was having extreme pain from kidney stones, before going to hospital, time seemed to fast forward, I didn't remember a lot of lying on the floor in pain, barely able to breathe. Not fun to be sure. Maybe it is the bodies way or protecting itself.
I am sure those who survived will need counseling services for their horrible ordeal. Especially for the two men and young woman who survived the attack, who spoke calmly and matter of fact during their interview. I must admit, I was expecting one or more of them to lose it on camera, and they didn't.
In the discovery show there was a young man who begged for his life, then Breivik turned around and yelled "today is the day you will all die" and killed someone else. Then he went to the young man and shot him in the shoulder. So it sounds like Breivik didnt try to spare him, he just aimed badly.
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Quote by DevilsAvocado
Maybe for the simple fact that he doesn’t have any... he just wants it to look that way...
It is part of his mind game.
What he is after, and he is quite clear about it, is to induce paranoia in the ruling multi-cultural elites, so that these will repress perfectly legitimate critics of multi-culturalism.
These then, within Breivik's mind, will then lose the belief in the democratic process and turn to violence instead.
To indicate that there exist a number of as yet undisclosed terror cells will maximize the probability that such a witch hunt begins.
Breivik is a nihilist and self-appointed harbinger of the apocalypse, the best way to deal with him is to have a political climate in which he is utterly irrelevant, and just a disgusting, evil aberration.
That will also hurt him the most..
It is part of his mind game.
What he is after, and he is quite clear about it, is to induce paranoia in the ruling multi-cultural elites, so that these will repress perfectly legitimate critics of multi-culturalism.
These then, within Breivik's mind, will then lose the belief in the democratic process and turn to violence instead.
To indicate that there exist a number of as yet undisclosed terror cells will maximize the probability that such a witch hunt begins.
Breivik is a nihilist and self-appointed harbinger of the apocalypse, the best way to deal with him is to have a political climate in which he is utterly irrelevant, and just a disgusting, evil aberration.
That will also hurt him the most..
Agree.
I don’t like to get too 'melodramatic & emotional' (except for the initial shock), but I would be lying in not admitting that this kind of "mind" frightens me...
The 'layman picture' of severe mental illness is a person in total chaos, incapable of performing the simplest everyday tasks.
This is something else... and it looks like that even the professors can’t agree on what it is...
For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world.
hum... suddenly I’ve got a weird feeling there’s something wrong with my username... DevilsAvocado... can one change...?
Seriously, you are both right, it’s just (stupid) me who wants a "clinical & logical explanation", where possible no 'logic' can be found – just pure evil.
It’s just that Norway is the last place on earth I suspected this kind evilness could 'arise'... maybe if it had been on Kim Jong-Il’s backyard... it would have been easier to digest...
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Quote by DevilsAvocado
), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) 
