Question about brain waves


by 000guy
Tags: brain, waves
000guy
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#1
Jul24-11, 08:21 PM
P: 7
OK I know brain waves are cyclic but do they use the same electrons throughout or do they switch between electrons?
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000guy
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#2
Jul24-11, 08:28 PM
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Also are all neurotic electrons constantly connected by electromagnetic fields?
samsracecar
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#3
Jul25-11, 12:06 AM
P: 5
1. Brain waves are electrochemical impulses.
2. These "brain waves" are carried on neurons, not electrons.

To answer your first question, thoughts are carried through different paths throughout neurons. The electric impulses may use the same neuron every now and then, but never the same pathway.

Second question, I'm not sure.

Ryan_m_b
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#4
Jul25-11, 05:27 AM
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Question about brain waves


Quote Quote by 000guy View Post
OK I know brain waves are cyclic but do they use the same electrons throughout or do they switch between electrons?
Brain waves* are the result of electrochemical action potentials travelling down neurons in a neural network.

*the electrical activity read by electroencephalography.

Quote Quote by 000guy View Post
Also are all neurotic electrons constantly connected by electromagnetic fields?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "constantly connected"

Quote Quote by samsracecar View Post
To answer your first question, thoughts are carried through different paths throughout neurons.
Action potential's travel down neurons, we have no real idea as to how thoughts (AKA subjective experience) are generated from material interactions. This is called the hard problem of consciousness.
mishrashubham
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#5
Jul25-11, 07:35 AM
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Quote Quote by 000guy View Post
Also are all neurotic electrons constantly connected by electromagnetic fields?
In addition, could you tell us where you read that from? Or is it something that you have thought up on your own? This would help us give a useful reply, since "neurotic electrons" doesn't make sense, and I googled that term just to be sure, but found nothing.
Ryan_m_b
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#6
Jul25-11, 07:40 AM
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Quote Quote by mishrashubham View Post
This would help us give a useful reply, since "neurotic electrons" doesn't make sense, and I googled that term just to be sure, but found nothing.
Obviously electrons that are distressed and need a break
000guy
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#7
Jul25-11, 11:28 AM
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OK another question, if information (like memory) is stored in neurons is the same neuron used for recalling that memory???
ALso are the same neurons used for identical thoughts, experiences, etc.???
Ryan_m_b
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#8
Jul25-11, 11:37 AM
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Quote Quote by 000guy View Post
OK another question, if information (like memory) is stored in neurons is the same neuron used for recalling that memory???
ALso are the same neurons used for identical thoughts, experiences, etc.???
We don't really know how memory is stored in the brain, whilst we know that neural networks form into patterns we don't know how these patterns create subjective experience. But we can point to some processes such as long-term potentiation and we know which areas of the brain store which types of memory but that's about it.

As for which neurons are used for which thoughts that's an interesting question. In regions like the amygdala or the visual cortex it stands to reasons that there are fixed regions that invoke specific emotions or process certain images. However we don't know enough to suggest that when we think "apple" it is the same region all the time.
zoobyshoe
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#9
Jul25-11, 11:48 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
Brain waves* are the result of electrochemical action potentials travelling down neurons in a neural network.

*the electrical activity read by electroencephalography.
If you read the wiki article you linked to on EEG's you'll see that it asserts that what an EEG picks up is not "electrochemical action potentials traveling down neurons in a neural network" but a phenomenon called "volume conduction":

Neurons are electrically charged (or "polarized") by membrane transport proteins that pump ions across their membranes. Neurons are constantly exchanging ions with the extracellular milieu, for example to maintain resting potential and to propagate action potentials. Ions of like charge repel each other, and when many ions are pushed out of many neurons at the same time, they can push their neighbours, who push their neighbours, and so on, in a wave. This process is known as volume conduction. When the wave of ions reaches the electrodes on the scalp, they can push or pull electrons on the metal on the electrodes. Since metal conducts the push and pull of electrons easily, the difference in push or voltage between any two electrodes can be measured by a voltmeter. Recording these voltages over time gives us the EEG.[4]
The electric potentials generated by single neurons are far too small to be picked by EEG or MEG.[5] EEG activity therefore always reflects the summation of the synchronous activity of thousands or millions of neurons that have similar spatial orientation. If the cells do not have similar spatial orientation, their ions do not line up and create waves to be detected. Pyramidal neurons of the cortex are thought to produce most EEG signal because they are well-aligned and fire together. Because voltage fields fall off with the square of the distance, activity from deep sources is more difficult to detect than currents near the skull.[6]
So, rather than the "travel" of signals (i.e. as along an axon), the EEG picks up the EMF of the mass "reloading" and "firing" as it were, of large populations of neurons, according to this article. "Exchanging ions with the extracellular millieu" refers to the pumping of ions from inside the neuron to the outside of the neuron, and, conversely, the sudden migration of those ions back into the inside of the neuron when it "fires". That's not the traveling signal from one neuron to the next via neurotransmitters that we think of as the operative procedure of a neural net. The EMF of volume conduction does not travel along a network but is dependent on the spatial orientation of the neurons, instead (and, interestingly, independent of direct connection between the neurons involved), and on the number of neurons taking part synchronously ("thousands or millions"). Apparently, according to the article, the neurons have to be oriented in a specific way with respect to each other for a volume conduction to reach the surface and be detected.

The only "travel" involved, if you want to speak of travel here, is the travel of positive ions from outside the cell to the inside, and visa versa. The EEG is not picking up the travel of signals from, for example, thalamus to cortex.
Evo
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#10
Jul25-11, 01:25 PM
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Medical definition of brain wave

brain wave
n.
A rhythmic fluctuation of electric potential between parts of the brain, as seen on an electroencephalogram.

The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...com/brain+wave
000guy
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#11
Jul25-11, 02:34 PM
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Do you think it would be reasonable to hypothesize that repeated functions use the same neurons?
000guy
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#12
Jul25-11, 05:00 PM
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Oh and does the structure of neurons ever change or is it the same???
I know it changes in some of them but does it change in ALL of them???
000guy
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#13
Jul25-11, 05:15 PM
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replise plz.
Pythagorean
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#14
Jul25-11, 05:46 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
If you read the wiki article you linked to on EEG's you'll see that it asserts that what an EEG picks up is not "electrochemical action potentials traveling down neurons in a neural network" but a phenomenon called "volume conduction":

....

The only "travel" involved, if you want to speak of travel here, is the travel of positive ions from outside the cell to the inside, and visa versa. The EEG is not picking up the travel of signals from, for example, thalamus to cortex.
That's rather nitpicky... The EEG does, indirectly, pick up the action potentials (albeit through volume conduction). The action potential doesn't refer to matter traveling down the axon, it refers to the propagation, the disturbance, so ryan is correct in saying it travels. Like a wave in the water is a transfer of energy, the water molecules don't travel along with the wave.
Pythagorean
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#15
Jul25-11, 05:50 PM
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000guy, what exactly do you have in mind when you say functions?

There's many coding schemes among neurons, and many of them utilize several coding schemes at once, trafficking more than one flow of information (for example, a parse coder may also be a temporal coder and it may pickup the two different streams from two different pathways at it's dendrites and pass it off to two different neurons downstream. In other words, the neuron is maintaining to completely independent streams.

Once a neuron has differentiated into a specific kind of neuron, it cannot change its type, but new neurons can grow, new connections can be lost and formed, so the network is still very plastic.
000guy
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#16
Jul25-11, 06:33 PM
P: 7
Are all connections temporary or are there some permanent ones (like associatd with memory/selfawareness/etc.)
Evo
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#17
Jul25-11, 06:42 PM
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That's what I thought, this is a previously banned crackpot. I should have checked sooner when they repeatedly made such incomprehensible posts.


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