In High School chem wrong like HS Physics?


by KingNothing
Tags: chem, physics, school
Gokul43201
Gokul43201 is offline
#19
Dec2-04, 10:46 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Gokul43201's Avatar
P: 11,154
Far from doing any experiments, he doesn't even have a degree in physics.

From his website
I was born in Goes, the Netherlands, 5 Ap 1941, and emigrated with my family to Canada in 1956. I attended the University of Alberta (B.A. (hon.), Philosophy, 1963), and the University of Pittsburgh (M.A. 1964; Ph. D., Philosophy, 1966).
But he seems to be a fairly reputed philosopher so I doubt he'd actually say that atoms "are not directly observable".



Below is an STM picture of xenon atoms on a nickel (100) plane measured by Eigler at the IBM Almaden labs :

Not only have the atoms been imaged, they were actually moved into the specific locations using an STM tip.

For more pictures, check out the picture gallery at their website
Gokul43201
Gokul43201 is offline
#20
Dec2-04, 10:53 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Gokul43201's Avatar
P: 11,154
And recently, Rugar's group at IBM detected a single electron spin using MRFM.

<just pre-empting anyone that might want to say that electrons are not directly observable>
Loren Booda
Loren Booda is offline
#21
Dec2-04, 11:39 PM
Loren Booda's Avatar
P: 3,408
van Fraassen, whom I may have previously misrepresented, says more along the lines that atoms are theoretical entities because they cannot be observed directly by the senses.

I hope I honored what Up_Creek had said, however, previous to my post.

If you think van Fraassen a kook, start a thread on him in the Philosophy forum.

Anyone here done experiments on individual atoms? The closest I came were a Millikan oil-drop experiment with e/m to 1% of accepted value and using a 1 MeV van de Graaf generator to replicate Rutherford's experiment.
ZapperZ
ZapperZ is offline
#22
Dec3-04, 07:21 AM
Mentor
ZapperZ's Avatar
P: 28,801
Quote Quote by Loren Booda
van Fraassen, whom I may have previously misrepresented, says more along the lines that atoms are theoretical entities because they cannot be observed directly by the senses.
That doesn't make it better. In fact, it is quite sad. It reveals even a greater level of ignorance. But I expect nothing less...

If you think van Fraassen a kook, start a thread on him in the Philosophy forum.
No, I'll let other people frolick in there with their own "theoretical entities". Now talk about ideas that are not directly observed!

Zz.
Locrian
Locrian is offline
#23
Dec3-04, 11:35 AM
P: 1,696
Quote Quote by Loren Booda
van Fraassen, whom I may have previously misrepresented, says more along the lines that atoms are theoretical entities because they cannot be observed directly by the senses.
That may be what he says, but no one with any understanding of the philosophy of science should take that argument as having any meaning at all. He should brush up on this topic.
Loren Booda
Loren Booda is offline
#24
Dec3-04, 05:40 PM
Loren Booda's Avatar
P: 3,408
ZapperZ,

I suggest you explore your need to carry out ad hominem attacks on Physics Forums, since none of us is truly an expert in the field.
ZapperZ
ZapperZ is offline
#25
Dec3-04, 08:12 PM
Mentor
ZapperZ's Avatar
P: 28,801
Quote Quote by Loren Booda
ZapperZ,

I suggest you explore your need to carry out ad hominem attacks on Physics Forums, since none of us is truly an expert in the field.
And similarly, I would suggest you confine your philosophical musings to the Philosophy section, and this meandering off the topic would NOT have happened in the first place.

Zz.
KingNothing
KingNothing is offline
#26
Dec8-04, 12:28 AM
P: 949
Alright kids, stop fighting and sit back down. I think philosophy has its place in physics (philosophy was why einstein diverged from the beliefs at the time, not hard facts), however I don't think that place for philosphy is in this thread.

Does anyone have anything more to add to the original question? I'm a junior in high school, so I can probably take on some college chemistry/physics without much difficulty.
Loren Booda
Loren Booda is offline
#27
Dec8-04, 12:30 PM
Loren Booda's Avatar
P: 3,408
Higher atomic numbers tend to involve greater relativistic effects, usually not considered in basic chemistry.

The properties of water and carbon, explored in biochemistry, are quite unique and lead to the bases of life. A biochemist here might be able to help you further in that regard.
somy
somy is offline
#28
Dec8-04, 12:35 PM
P: 135
So sorry for developing the science, Mr KingNothing!!!
Loren Booda
Loren Booda is offline
#29
Dec8-04, 06:43 PM
Loren Booda's Avatar
P: 3,408
Correction: greater electronic relativistic effects.
Ethereal
#30
Dec10-04, 06:09 AM
P: n/a
I found this website which does detail some of the misconceptions HS students acquire from textbooks and teachers:

http://www.rod.beavon.clara.net/chemistry_contents.htm

Among them:

Q10 is not 2; an exploration of the fiction that reaction rates double for a 10K rise in temperature

The real pH of H2SO4

As well as interesting articles such as:

Chemists' decline?
What is a syllabus for?

Does anyone else know of websites debunking popular science misconceptions?
osskall
osskall is offline
#31
Dec10-04, 09:07 AM
P: 48
Quote Quote by GeneralChemTutor
Study the shapes of the suborbitals, their orientations, size, and distance from the nucleus, these are somewhat related to the positional probability and you can more skillfully understand such concepts as you mentioned. This will be more applicable when you enter organic chemistry (which hybrid orbital sp3, sp2, sp, offers more stability for its anion, using the factors I mentioned in the beginning of this post? etc.......)
Radial distribution functions are a good help in this context.
bjon-07
bjon-07 is offline
#32
Dec13-04, 10:02 PM
P: 95
Why don;t the element if group 3 (Boron, ect..) don't need to have octects?

We refer to them has having open valance shells but why do they have open valance shells?

I am currently in O chem.
Zygotic Embryo
Zygotic Embryo is offline
#33
Feb20-06, 04:04 PM
P: 28
Quote Quote by Gokul43201
You can't try to understand QM at this level. Just be patient and you'll learn some of in it college.
Enough Said


Register to reply

Related Discussions
High and school and Physics Academic Guidance 29
High school chem project [preferably on toxicology] Chemistry 0
Chem AP, High school help needed Biology, Chemistry & Other Homework 15
High School Chem Academic Guidance 3
Science Bowls/Competitions for US High School and Middle (Jr High) School Students Academic Guidance 0