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TOE incomplete without God


by phoenixthoth
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Erck
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#55
Mar31-04, 03:32 PM
P: 176
God the "whole"... is greater than the sum of it's parts "the universe."
JesseBonin
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#56
Mar31-04, 03:44 PM
P: 66
sentience? sembiance? some giant sitting on a cloud looking down on us and making a list?

entheos i think is closest to the truth
"i am the god i am" part of the original text of the first comandment best guess translation..
GoD may not be more than the premiss of something larger than ourselves, maybe our existence is a neccessary ingredient to gods makeup.

maybe god is some adolecet who just lit a firecraker and we are the ultra-microscopic residents of the small explosion cought in the small rift in time/space created by the divergence of light..
Erck
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#57
Mar31-04, 03:47 PM
P: 176
Quote Quote by JesseBonin
maybe our existence is a neccessary ingredient to gods makeup.
I certainly agree with this statement.

God is always being all it can be.
sol2
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#58
Mar31-04, 04:04 PM
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P: 915
Quote Quote by selfAdjoint
God may very well rule the universe, but physics "has no need of that hypothesis" (Laplace).
A lot of issues have been placed on this alter:)

Of course, a trail has been blazed in GR.

What value would dimension be, if we did not give it some consideration?
JesseBonin
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#59
Mar31-04, 04:06 PM
P: 66
there are 2 sides to every coin (action and reaction so on and so forth) so if there is a "god" is there not also an "anti-god"

humans by nature have a tendancy to put either too much or too little of themselves into any equation, but science, if it has shown us nothing, has shown us that everything exists in balance with itself.

as individuals we are almost insignificant to the whole, but as a race we are profundly affective (not a misuse, i mean affective not effective ) we are in essence the root of all we know and understand about GOD and the universe. OUR sembiant intelligence is far greater than our individual understanding.

that being said, it seems to me our "sembiant intelligence" could use a few lessons in things like "self preservation" and "conservation" """sorry, had to add that for some unknown reason"""
sol2
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#60
Mar31-04, 04:07 PM
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P: 915
Quote Quote by JesseBonin
there are 2 sides to every coin (action and reaction so on and so forth) so if there is a "god" is there not also an "anti-god"

humans by nature have a tendancy to put either too much or too little of themselves into any equation, but science, if it has shown us nothing, has shown us that everything exists in balance with itself.

as individuals we are almost insignificant to the whole, but as a race we are profundly affective (not a misuse, i mean affective not effective ) we are in essence the root of all we know and understand about GOD and the universe. OUR sembiant intelligence is far greater than our individual understanding.

that being said, it seems to me our "sembiant intelligence" could use a few lessons in things like "self preservation" and "conservation" """sorry, had to add that for some unknown reason"""

In a evolutionary context, it appeases the Gods?
Erck
Erck is offline
#61
Mar31-04, 04:09 PM
P: 176
Quote Quote by JesseBonin
there are 2 sides to every coin (action and reaction so on and so forth) so if there is a "god" is there not also an "anti-god
Only if god is relative and not absolute.
sol2
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#62
Mar31-04, 04:14 PM
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P: 915
Quote Quote by Erck
Only if god is relative and not absolute.
A lot of people divest themselves of probabilibistic determinations. Yet we find, orbiting imaginations, have this same brilliance, to manifest constructive things
Erck
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#63
Mar31-04, 04:17 PM
P: 176
sol2... I'm sensing some substance there... any chance you could restate that?
Jimbroni
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#64
Mar31-04, 04:19 PM
P: 21
Regardless of your spiritual beliefs or disbeliefs. God, Buddha, Christna, Satan, Ra, whatever all these have to be included in your definition of "everything" or else your definition is incomplete or perhaps theory of everything is really not what your after.
When you say everything, to me that means everything including all of our thoughts, dreams, beliefs, disbeliefs,math, science, well everything.
I personally like Grand Unification Theory as better more defined name.
JesseBonin
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#65
Mar31-04, 04:22 PM
P: 66
Quote Quote by Erck
Only if god is relative and not absolute.
ahhh.. now we find the point at which religon and physics converge 8)

we call God "god" physics calls god "photon"

the priciple problem with relativity is the existance of something we cannot measure "light" more specifically "photon"
all things we deem "real" have motion, therefor energy and mass, perhaps photon does not move at all, and is absolute stationary, therefor is must transfer "energy" by some other means (dark energy) we percive light (and by default everything that exists) by passing through this photonic energy. so if we make the next "leap of faith" is not photon the same god, or at least the essence of god??
sol2
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#66
Mar31-04, 04:25 PM
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P: 915
Quote Quote by Erck
sol2... I'm sensing some substance there... any chance you could restate that?
Certainly there is Uncertainty when it comes to position and momentum, but in the instance of orbital patterns, one can get around this?

So the question then is place out there about uncertainty, and what can be determined and what can't be?

I would say, that if such an action is contemplated, that it definitely has consequences. I just have to prove it?

Regardless of the nesessicity of having to prove it, life still goes on:)

Does this sound logical?
Erck
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#67
Mar31-04, 04:25 PM
P: 176
Quote Quote by Jimbroni
Regardless of your spiritual beliefs or disbeliefs. God, Buddha, Christna, Satan, Ra, whatever all these have to be included in your definition of "everything" or else your definition is incomplete or perhaps theory of everything is really not what your after.
But is it impossible to include a definition of god in a TOE?
sol2
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#68
Mar31-04, 04:30 PM
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P: 915
Quote Quote by Jimbroni
Regardless of your spiritual beliefs or disbeliefs. God, Buddha, Christna, Satan, Ra, whatever all these have to be included in your definition of "everything" or else your definition is incomplete or perhaps theory of everything is really not what your after.
When you say everything, to me that means everything including all of our thoughts, dreams, beliefs, disbeliefs,math, science, well everything.
I personally like Grand Unification Theory as better more defined name.
Why not a belief, that such choices made, can hold relevances to the gravity of all situations. That some, operate independantly, having realized that such choices have consequences?:) Maybe God, can do that? But us mere mortals, are locked into the entanglement issue?:)
JesseBonin
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#69
Mar31-04, 04:49 PM
P: 66
you can call god anything you like, reguardless of specific beliefe. it all boils down to human need to believe that there is something greater than themselves. As humans we can deny that desire, but that is a belief unto itself and still propogates the "god" aspect of humanity. written into our very DNA is the need to discover and find hope or "develope" into something greater than that which we currently are or currently know. weather you study to find enlightenment, dive into the pool of drugs, or meditate endlessly the goal is the same. Is that not the work of god?? Our endevor to proove that there is a god is proof in and of itself that god does indeed exist.

as we delve deeper and deeper into our small universe we find more and more to discover, is this not the propegating effect we might name god? If god is not a reason to improve ourselves (or evolve) then what use would god be? and more importantly why would our belief in such an entity be important to that entity.

as we expand our knowlege and improve our ability to percieve do we not make god more powerful? or a least more present? again we downplay our importance in the universe. if all mankind perished, would the universe cease to exist? it would for us to be sure.

i say, what we percive as a people exist ONLY unto us. besides, if we all perished who would be left to tell us if the universe went on without us or not?
Mr. Robin Parsons
Mr. Robin Parsons is offline
#70
Mar31-04, 07:21 PM
P: 1,560
Quote Quote by sol2
(SNIP)Certainly there is Uncertainty when it comes to position and momentum, but in the instance of orbital patterns, one can get around this?(SNoP)
The Certainty of 'uncertainty' is ours in our observance, it is NOT in the atom, nor in it's behaviour...begs what is actually uncertain in the first place, but alas it is the first place that we cannot find as to follow exactly absolutely all of cause and effect....hence a form of uncertainty is built into the system we inhabit...meant to be pre-requisites "belief" ergo belief systems....and so on....and so on....
Jimbroni
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#71
Mar31-04, 07:55 PM
P: 21
Quote Quote by Mr. Robin Parsons
The Certainty of 'uncertainty' is ours in our observance, it is NOT in the atom, nor in it's behaviour...begs what is actually uncertain in the first place, but alas it is the first place that we cannot find as to follow exactly absolutely all of cause and effect....hence a form of uncertainty is built into the system we inhabit...meant to be pre-requisites "belief" ergo belief systems....and so on....and so on....

Well Said.
Jimbroni
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#72
Mar31-04, 08:11 PM
P: 21
Quote Quote by sol2
Why not a belief, that such choices made, can hold relevances to the gravity of all situations. That some, operate independantly, having realized that such choices have consequences?:) Maybe God, can do that? But us mere mortals, are locked into the entanglement issue?:)
I would agree that such decisions one would make would have a profound effect on ones perspective, thus altering his/her/its :) logic. Which is why I personally would not try to include an intangible such as God into TOE and instead focus on GUT, but perhaps we don't have a choice or the initial cause isn't meant to be found. So like any scientific endeavor you need a control variable. I think the easy way out is to make God the controlled variable. :) That just feels funny to say that.


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