Mitt Romney's candidacy


by ThomasT
Tags: candidacy, mitt, romney
WhoWee
WhoWee is offline
#469
Feb12-12, 01:56 PM
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Quote Quote by ThomasT View Post
We judge him by what he says and does. The way I was thinking of and using the term "rhetorical pandering" might not be the most correct. I'm not sure what Romney's base includes (other than Mormons, the financial sector, big business, and the wealthy), but I think that some of his statements are designed to appeal to some base or other that he might not actually be aligned with. Just like, imo, most politicians do (including Obama) from time to time.

I don't know if Romney actually intends to implement drug testing for recipients of temporary cash welfare. It doesn't seem to me to be an important consideration or one that would actually be implemented, but Romney's statements in favor of it might get him some points with the portion of Americans who aren't particularly fond of government welfare (especially cash assistance) or proposals regarding the legalization/decriminalization of drugs, but who might be considered to be outside what seems to me to be his obvious base of support.
I'm a bit confused - isn't Romney supposed to be too moderate for the Conservatives in the Republican Party?
ThomasT
ThomasT is offline
#470
Feb12-12, 02:01 PM
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Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
If you dont want people to use government money to buy drugs, you dont take away their rights, you take away the money.
Imo, it's perfectly fair and not a breach of rights to require people getting free money from the government to test clean for illegal drugs. But it's such a relatively small possible problem that I have to conclude that Romney only made the statements he did about it in order to appeal to a certain portion of the voting public, and not because he would actually do that if elected.
ThomasT
ThomasT is offline
#471
Feb12-12, 02:02 PM
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Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
I'm a bit confused - isn't Romney supposed to be too moderate for the Conservatives in the Republican Party?
That's what I read. What is it that you're confused about?
WhoWee
WhoWee is offline
#472
Feb12-12, 02:08 PM
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Quote Quote by ThomasT View Post
That's what I read. What is it that you're confused about?
I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?
ThomasT
ThomasT is offline
#473
Feb12-12, 02:14 PM
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Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?
I see.
daveb
daveb is offline
#474
Feb13-12, 08:14 AM
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Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
If the Government pays for you to live there - it is reasonable they could take it away if you break the law.
Yes, but mandatory drug searches have an implied presumption of guilt, or at the very least reasonable suspicion.
WhoWee
WhoWee is offline
#475
Feb13-12, 08:44 AM
P: 1,123
Quote Quote by daveb View Post
Yes, but mandatory drug searches have an implied presumption of guilt, or at the very least reasonable suspicion.
We have another thread for this. However, if you know you'll lose your Government assistance if you test positive for drugs - you need to decide which is more important - the Government money or the drugs?
daveb
daveb is offline
#476
Feb13-12, 09:10 AM
P: 927
Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?
I'm not sure what Romney's base is, since he's in the Republican Primary. I know he's trying to appeal to the Conservative base of the Republicans, just as primary candidates for a Democratic primary try to appeal to the liberal base of the Democratic party. It seems a no-win situation for at least half () of the candidates in the general election since then they have to appeal to the middle ground. Essentially, it seems that whoever dodges the flip-flopping they make from primary to general election ends up the winner.
WhoWee
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#477
Feb13-12, 09:15 AM
P: 1,123
Quote Quote by daveb View Post
I'm not sure what Romney's base is, since he's in the Republican Primary. I know he's trying to appeal to the Conservative base of the Republicans, just as primary candidates for a Democratic primary try to appeal to the liberal base of the Democratic party. It seems a no-win situation for at least half () of the candidates in the general election since then they have to appeal to the middle ground. Essentially, it seems that whoever dodges the flip-flopping they make from primary to general election ends up the winner.
I think Romney is wise to keep his focus on President Obama - this appeals to all Republicans.
Jasongreat
Jasongreat is offline
#478
Feb14-12, 02:14 AM
P: 75
Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
You're completely missing what is "voluntary". If the government program you are participating in is voluntary, they can attach conditions to it (see: driving). Choosing to live in a house instead of an apartment is not a government program.

Note though that walking down the street is a different issue entirely. Since it is an act done in public, there are certain privacy issues you voluntarily waive by doing it. That's a "not even wrong" question. It implies that the search itself is not voluntary. It is voluntary.
I disagree with the driving comment, the USC has said in numerous cases that the right to travel shall not be infringed. Government officials make us believe it is voluntary, but can you name one contract a sixteen year old is capable of signing that is binding? Besides giving up thier rights to the fourth and fifth ammendments? According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable. What does that word mean? Is it that if we can make a case they should be alienated from you they can be? Or does unalieanable mean that even we can not give up those rights? Those two distinctions seem in contradiction, so which is it? We have unalienable rights that can be we can be alienated from, or unalienable means unalienable?

I will ask you the same question I asked WhoWee on another thread, is there any rights we cant be alienated from? There are ten in the bill of rights, are all alienable with the 'proper' disqualifications? If so what is the purpose of the bill of rights?
Char. Limit
Char. Limit is offline
#479
Feb14-12, 02:21 AM
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Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
I disagree with the driving comment, the USC has said in numerous cases that the right to travel shall not be infringed. Government officials make us believe it is voluntary, but can you name one contract a sixteen year old is capable of signing that is binding? Besides giving up thier rights to the fourth and fifth ammendments? According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable. What does that word mean? Is it that if we can make a case they should be alienated from you they can be? Or does unalieanable mean that even we can not give up those rights? Those two distinctions seem in contradiction, so which is it? We have unalienable rights that can be we can be alienated from, or unalienable means unalienable?

I will ask you the same question I asked WhoWee on another thread, is there any rights we cant be alienated from? There are ten in the bill of rights, are all alienable with the 'proper' disqualifications? If so what is the purpose of the bill of rights?
You have the right to travel. You don't have the right to take a car along.
Jasongreat
Jasongreat is offline
#480
Feb14-12, 02:42 AM
P: 75
Quote Quote by Char. Limit View Post
You have the right to travel. You don't have the right to take a car along.
Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”
Jasongreat
Jasongreat is offline
#481
Feb14-12, 02:48 AM
P: 75
Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
I think Romney is wise to keep his focus on President Obama - this appeals to all Republicans.
I think Ronmey focusing on Romneycare would quiet all republicans, however I can see that it doesnt appeal to Republicans.
daveb
daveb is offline
#482
Feb14-12, 09:18 AM
P: 927
Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”
Fascinating stuff...I'm going to have to look into this a tad more.
Oltz
Oltz is offline
#483
Feb14-12, 09:50 AM
P: 12
Does that mean I do not need an inspection this year?
ParticleGrl
ParticleGrl is offline
#484
Feb14-12, 12:18 PM
P: 669
Quote Quote by JasonGreat
According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable.
Then perhaps you should read the US constitution, which doesn't mention inalienable or unalienable rights, or natural rights, etc. Maybe you are thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which isn't a legal document.
Office_Shredder
Office_Shredder is offline
#485
Feb14-12, 12:31 PM
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Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”

This was more convincing before I realized that you just copy/pasted this from another website. I tried finding some of these cases to confirm what they say but I just get tons of websites citing the exact same quotes with no additional information. Do you know where the original opinions/rulings can be found?
AlephZero
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#486
Feb14-12, 07:36 PM
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I just read the fist paragraph of your quote, and I the main thing that struck me (assuming that US and UK motoring law are vaguely similar) is that it may well be correct, but irrelevant.

In the UK there is no legal restriction on anybody of any age driving any vehicle almost anywhere they want. The restrictions are about driving vehicles on public highways.

"Public highways" are legally defined very precisely in the UK. Indeed there have been court cases where a local highways department redesigned a road junction by adding a one-way slip road, somebody was been prosecuted for driving the wrong way down it. and they were acquitted because the council had forgotten to go through the correct legal process to register the new bit of tarmac as a public highway. Of course those loopholes get fixed rather fast, once they have been discovered!


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