Women in Engineering and Computer Science

NewtonianAlch

I'm very interested to know as to what kind of "heavy objects" you're referring to here, specifically the weight of these objects and what is the "dirty work" and "days of physical labour"? It's good to know these things in its entirety because a lot of this is ambiguous and is dependent on the individual.

lisab

Why does it matter what the objects are? The things sweetpotato mentioned are found in many work environments.

My last job sometimes involved maneuvering large rolls of paper into band saws. How heavy were they? Well, some of the stronger men could move them around if they really tried, but most couldn't budge them. The environment was dirty, greasy, hot, and dusty. No one of either gender particularly enjoyed that part of it. And why were we wrestling huge paper rolls? Because the rolls had to be a certain size to fit into the prototype treater we used in R&D. Running prototype equipment is a big part of R&D, doing projects frequently took weeks and weeks to complete, and often required significant physical labor.

sweetpotato

The "heavy objects"- for example, we use these DC power supplies that are about 50-60 lbs. No, there's no way I can lift that over my head.

The "hours of physical labor" refers to wiring and installing items such as these DC power supplies for 8+ hours a day when the workflow of the company requires it and the technicians who are primarily in charge of doing this are too busy.

The "dirty work" refers to working on old equipment covered with dust and mouse droppings, being in contact with grease, sawdust, glue, crawling into small dirty spaces (behind equipment), lying down on the floor wiring and installing equipment.

NewtonianAlch

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

sweetpotato

I answered your question above.

However- just because a company should disallow certain practices or conditions doesn't mean they do. Even if they are "illegal". Regulation agencies such as OSHA don't come in every day checking up on workplace conditions and practices.

NewtonianAlch

50-60 lbs is not even a remotely heavy load, although by definition at a work place, it would be considered a "heavy" load and as such there are either tools required to maneuver them or several people to do it.

I don't mean to be rude, but oh boohoo, dusty, mouse droppings and greasy? If someone wants to do the work, I think they should not complain about it. I know it's not just me, as most of the work I do or have done in the past involves this kind of stuff, as it's our bread and butter, and I've never encountered any of the guys I work with complaining about it. If we're there for work, and we know what it entails, there's no whinging to tolerate, you get on with it. Triceps hurting? Tough, deal with it. Something's really too heavy, then use a tool or get others to lift it with you.

I frankly don't find any of the things you've mentioned even remotely overboard or difficult, and for me (and perhaps many others) it would seem like something that's welcoming. It's probably the reason why you see mainly men in jobs like the mechanic trade.

NewtonianAlch

I was actually replying to lisab in that post.

Yes I do know that these things don't happen as per the guidelines, but I also do know that some of these posts of "difficult" labour is largely exaggerated. Some people may find "dirty" environments difficult to deal with, whilst for others it's pretty stock standard. And more often than not, it's men that are less likely to be affected by it.

If you can't deal with the work, or don't like it, why do it?

lisab

Each roll had different dimensions and properties, so their weight would vary. But this gives an idea:



It's hard work maneuvering an object that size. Good communication, teamwork, and yes even a bit of brute strength are all necessary.

The work environment you speak of is typical of predictable, production-type work. R&D is quite a different beast. Nearly every day, you do non-routine tasks that don't have safety protocols worked out. It's not for everybody.

sweetpotato

I think you're missing my point. I enjoy my job and don't find these things unreasonably difficult. That's why I think I am just as able to do my job as a man. Except for the "heavy lifting", which we have discussed already.

NewtonianAlch

I think that's incredibly silly. Look at the size of that?

Understandably the issue of a man vs woman moving something is rendered null and void in a scenario like that.

Clearly those kinds of objects are not meant to be moved by a single person. Why would anyone even want to bother unless it was just as a joke "amongst the guys" to see who's budging what.

Also note the forklift in use, probably the way that kind of item was meant to be moved.

NewtonianAlch

Then we're on the same page.

lisab

"Silly"? Yes they're large, aren't they?

"Joke amongst the guys" about moving large things? Not in my workplace; we're professional scientists and engineers and are expected to behave as such.

Yes I know there is a forklift in the pic. But now how do you get the roll from the forklift onto the bandsaw table? These kind of questions are solved every day when doing non-routine tasks.

With all due respect, you don't seem to have much experience with R&D.

NewtonianAlch

I didn't claim to have experience in R&D, and neither do I have experience in R&D, that's just some kind of faulty assumption you're drawing.

However, I have worked as a labourer for a long time, and I don't need to have been in R&D to know how to move things around. Suddenly my physical ability is non-existent to move something heavy or my mental ability has diminished suddenly because I haven't worked in R&D?? Please get off your high horse "we're professional scientists and engineers yada yada"

If anyone here is lacking some understanding here, I think it's you. I'm going to assume you actually haven't worked in manual labour before? And I don't mean this silly example of trying to move this large roll onto a bandsaw.

To be honest, if you wanted to move this on to a bandsaw, you'd use a forklift. Either get a team lift to move it slightly so the forklift driver can lift it. Forklifts have high tilt rotations, this can easily be maneuvered onto a bandsaw. In fact, I thought you were joking when you first posed this question, but now I see you actually posed it because you have no idea what goes on in manual labour. These kinds of tasks are pretty much stock standard. They may not involve moving moving a roll onto a bandsaw specifically, but it could be anything from removing a 500kg truck axle mounted on a pallet of 3, onto a truck which is loaded with other items. There is plenty of grunt work involved, so don't think that just because you've worked in R&D that you believe you've experience some kind of labour difficulty that no one else has.

Unless you've been digging for days on-end, working 15-hour shifts that can rival an intense gym workout, don't blab about the difficult a team of scientists had with moving a roll onto a bandsaw, honestly? How heavy is that roll anyway?

Just the idea of "professional scientists and engineers" standing around talking about how they had labour difficulties moving a heavy object is enough to elicit laughter from the grunt blokes who do these kinds of things on a daily basis. In fact, if it weren't for your status on this board, I would have thought you were trolling.

Edit: There are plenty of ways to get that roll onto a bandsaw table, obviously I'm not going to parrot out solutions here because I don't know dimensions, nor weights of these objects and can only guess. What you're alluding to here is not some engineering solution, but a very bone-headed job task that any band of labourers should be able to do or do on a regular basis.

mariexotoni

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

NewtonianAlch

I think any forum has its share of "moments".

NewtonianAlch

Here's something that was designed by an R&D (historically speaking) team, and man-handled by a labour force.

I wonder what the men who built this thought of moving a large roll onto a band-saw, probably couldn't because they had no experience in R&D.

I don't mean to be "attitudey", but these kinds of statements are going to annoy the hell out of anyone who has worked as a labourer doing the hard yards.

mariexotoni

Tempting, but I won't..

anyways, i was just referring to whomever was getting after sweetpotato about what she thought was heavy. we can never understand the point of view of someone else. especially via internet. and some people take these forums wayyyyyyyy too seriously and I think they just want to argue. I'm not here for that.