Coherence & Decoherence Effects of Quantum Spacetime

Kwok Man Hui

<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no,location=no, scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Re: Coherence and Decoherence Effect of Quantum Spacetime\n\nWe haven.t found anything like that officially though there exist many\nunofficial theoretical claims of decoherance. This time I would like to\nquote the following from a paper about decoherance in black hole\nthermodynamics.\n\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0310281\n\n..We propose that in quantum gravity one needs to impose a final state\nboundary condition at black hole singularities. This resolves the apparent\ncontradiction between string theory and semiclassical arguments over\nwhether black hole evaporation is unitary..\n\nEnd quote.\n\nThe authors applied the decoherance concept---.collapse of wave function\ndue to measurement. ---to get entangled state from some pure state and\nthen argued that the escaped particle is just like an EPR particle and\ncarried the relevant information about the infalling particle far far away\nfrom the black hole. They haven.t had any techniques to do the calculation\nyet, but they believe a full-fledged quantum gravity should get the job\ndone.\n\nI really think this decoherance sounds similar to mine in my .Decoherance\nQuestion. posting. However, the authors idea is incompatible with any idea\nthat allows information pass through the singularity to another universe\n(second asymptotic region of spacetime beyond the singularity) like the\none proposed by Lee Smolin that information in a black hole is passed to a\nbaby universe.\n\n"[Their] proposal of a final state is very closely connected to the\nproposal in [hep-th/9407008] where the interior of the black holes are\ntreated as wormholes [18]. Then if we consider the theory for fixed alpha\nparameters, the wave function for the interior of black holes is fixed.."\n\nI will not agree with this assumption because it may be true for some\nblack holes or may not be true for some other kind of black holes. Why the\ninterior must be like a wormhole? Why not there exist some background\nindependent non-perturbative quantum spacetime fluctuations? For example,\nspacetime dimension changes or new region of spacetime created or reduced\nwithin the event horizon. Why not the quantum singularity has some\nwhatsoever kind of self-interactions within its event horizon? Could the\nPlanck constant be a coupling constant?\n\nI think that we should reserve the right to have a theory that allows .the\ncollapse of the .wave function. due to decoherance to a level in a region\nwithin a region., in case the interior of a black hole may not look like a\nwormhole at all. I really think a dynamical quantization formulation of\nquantum gravity is more flexible to tackle the information loss paradox.\nThe interior quantum spacetime structure may be more complicated than the\nsemi-classical spacetime. Some concession on standard quantum mechanics\nmay be deemed necessary, but it doesn.t mean a loss of information. It\ndepends on what kind of theory we can rely on to .retrieve. the\ninformation.\n\nI am afraid that the way Nature does background independent work is not\nexactly same as AdS/CFT non-perturbative work.\n\nI speculate that there may have some amplified coherence quantum spacetime\neffect due to the entanglement/decohernace in a black hole. I believe\ndecoherance and coherence are dually balanced dynamical equilibrium\nprocesses, and is analogous to Roger Penrose words, .Loss of phase-space\nvolume occurs when a black hole is present (synergy/coherence). This may\nbe balanced against regain of phase-space volume due to wave function\ncollapse. (Decoherence). It looks almost like the menifestation of .A\naffects B; and vice versa B affects A. principle.\nNotice that I still have some puzzle or reservation on the .regain of\nphase-space volume outside the black hole. because the fundamental\nquestion is .how can nature quantum mechanically achieve volume gain.\nthough there exists a spin-network interpretation of volume gain but not\nconnected to this kind of information loss interpretation. Another\nimportant question is how can one measure/decode bosonic /fermionic\ninformation while it involves quantum spacetime geometry/topology changes\n(phase-space volume increase due to decoherence/measurement) despite of\nthe No-Hair Theorem. This phase-space increase may cause or may be in a\nform of bulk radiation at a very short (Planck scale) as a deBroglie wave\nlike a fire-ball radiates its flame out. Let me use an analogy. The black\nhole pierces its surrounding geometry by releasing or radiating a\ncondensed but degenerating form of spacetime .dark matter. fireball. Are\nwe able to measure and decode this kind of spacetime geometry and/or any\nother information it carries?\n\n\nEnd of the formal part.\n\n\nToday saying: I really wish I could well understand the following papers:\n\n[1] A.M. Polyakov, "String Theory and Quark Confinement" hep-th/9711002\nv1\n\nOn Edward Witten paper, "Anti-DeSitter Space and Holography", I wish to\nunderstand much beyond his first paragraph.\n\nQuote:\nTo understand the large N behavior of gauge theories with SU(N) gauge\ngroup is a longstanding problem[1], and offers perhaps the best hope of\neventually understanding the classic strong coupling mysteries of QCD. It\nhas long been suspected that the large N behavior, if accessible at all,\nshould be described by string theory perhaps with Liouville fields and\nhigher dimensions. Lately, with hints coming from explorations of the near\nevent horizon structure of certain black hole metrics and investigations\n[8-12] of scattering from those metrics, Maldacena has made a remarkable\nsuggestion concerning the large N limit not of conventional SU(N) gauge\ntheories but of some their conformally invariant cousins..There has also\nbeen a discussion of the flow to conformal field theory in some\ncases[14]..One of the most surprising claims in [13] was that (for\nexample) to describe the N=4 super Yang-Mills theory in four dimensions,\none should use not just low energy supergravity on AdS5 but the whole\ninfinite tower of massive Kaluza-Klein states on AdS5xS^5..\n\nEnd quote.\n\nSome sentences sound analogously familiar. For example, .The flow to\nconformal field theory. corresponds to .a flow of spacetime geometry to\nget turbulence and the rise of matter .. And .infinite tower of massive\nKaluza-Klein states. corresponds to .layer of a layer or boundary of\nboundary states and can.t be felt as boundary by some virus-like cells\n(new form of gauge bosons)..\nIf I understand their work on these areas more, I may know where should I\nslip in the quantum spacetime coherence concept in the black hole\nthermodynamics and an analogous one in QCD.\n\nI hope you see that I am trying to connect my line of thought from BEC\ncondensate to black hole thermodynamics to a new .string field.\nformulation of gauge field theory, and close in finding my long shot at a\nnew gauge field theory in which quantum spacetime synergetic effect\n(enhancement/entanglement effect) can be manifested in some cases,\nespecially in QCD. If the superstring people find more results in these\nareas, and I understand their work well enough, I could propose some\nexperiments to verify this property even without fully finding the\nmathematical formulation of the theory.\n\nAnother saying:\n\n..Strong in-phase nerve pulses fired at my in-phase BEC-like brain fluid.\nThe BEC recoiled and stayed in shape. The pulses might have bounced a few\ntimes between a few BEC-like regions while remained in the nerve tube to\nget further bosonic amplification/enhancement. The amplified/enhanced EM\npulses broke their critical boundaries and left my brain (might have\npierced the geometry outside my brain), and they carried the information\nvery likely in a bosonic form to somebody else brain. Which parts of a\nbrain decode the information coherently? And how?\n\nI really think some quantum mechanical action is the proper cause of some\nclassical effect, and it might have a dual quantum mechanical back\nreaction but, but not the other way round. So any current quantization\nscheme of spacetime will be very likely not the true one if without any\ncoherence effect in it. It just simply missed another half of the story.\n\nLet me put forward an analogy about the coherence effect. Think about two\nindividual people. Each of them can roam on the surface of the Earth\nfreely according to their free will. So their should have a total of 4\ndegrees of freedom of their phase space on the surface of the Earth. Now,\nthey are going to joint together to form as a single entity under a\nshield. The single entity means the couple acts together at all time under\nthe shield. Let say no one can see through the shield, so we don\'t know\ntheir sex, male--female combination or other combination under the shield.\nIf they act together, they lose two degrees of freedom but they gain in\nsome "force", say one people cannot move a rock but two togehter can move\nthe rock. This is the coherence effect of the two people uder the shield.\nSince it is in fact the coherence/cooperative/enhancement effect of\nquantum spacetime goemtry, I would like to coin the term I used in the\npast, i.e., synergetic effect or synergism of quantum spacetime.\nIncorporating these quantum mechanical effects may cost dearly for any\ncurrent quantum theory of spcetime, but it really depends on how can one\nmeasure and get a consistent interpretation of these new effects.\n\nThis is too hard to be understood without a quantum field formulation of\ncurrent BEC phenomena. So another thought left in a region of spacetime\nfor the physicists of future generations..\n\nCharles Hui\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">  View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Re: Coherence and Decoherence Effect of Quantum Spacetime

We haven.t found anything like that officially though there exist many
unofficial theoretical claims of decoherance. This time I would like to
quote the following from a paper about decoherance in black hole
thermodynamics.

http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxi...hep-th/0310281

..We propose that in quantum gravity one needs to impose a final state
boundary condition at black hole singularities. This resolves the apparent
contradiction between string theory and semiclassical arguments over
whether black hole evaporation is unitary..

End quote.

The authors applied the decoherance concept---.collapse of wave function
due to measurement. ---to get entangled state from some pure state and
then argued that the escaped particle is just like an EPR particle and
carried the relevant information about the infalling particle far far away
from the black hole. They haven.t had any techniques to do the calculation
yet, but they believe a full-fledged quantum gravity should get the job
done.

I really think this decoherance sounds similar to mine in my .Decoherance
Question. posting. However, the authors idea is incompatible with any idea
that allows information pass through the singularity to another universe
(second asymptotic region of spacetime beyond the singularity) like the
one proposed by Lee Smolin that information in a black hole is passed to a
baby universe.

"[Their] proposal of a final state is very closely connected to the
proposal in [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9407008] where the interior of the black holes are
treated as wormholes [18]. Then if we consider the theory for fixed [itex]\alpha[/itex]
parameters, the wave function for the interior of black holes is fixed.."

I will not agree with this assumption because it may be true for some
black holes or may not be true for some other kind of black holes. Why the
interior must be like a wormhole? Why not there exist some background
independent non-perturbative quantum spacetime fluctuations? For example,
spacetime dimension changes or new region of spacetime created or reduced
within the event horizon. Why not the quantum singularity has some
whatsoever kind of self-interactions within its event horizon? Could the
Planck constant be a coupling constant?

I think that we should reserve the right to have a theory that allows .the
collapse of the .wave function. due to decoherance to a level in a region
within a region., in case the interior of a black hole may not look like a
wormhole at all. I really think a dynamical quantization formulation of
quantum gravity is more flexible to tackle the information loss paradox.
The interior quantum spacetime structure may be more complicated than the
semi-classical spacetime. Some concession on standard quantum mechanics
may be deemed necessary, but it doesn.t mean a loss of information. It
depends on what kind of theory we can rely on to .retrieve. the
information.

I am afraid that the way Nature does background independent work is not
exactly same as [itex]AdS/CFT[/itex] non-perturbative work.

I speculate that there may have some amplified coherence quantum spacetime
effect due to the entanglement/decohernace in a black hole. I believe
decoherance and coherence are dually balanced dynamical equilibrium
processes, and is analogous to Roger Penrose words, .Loss of phase-space
volume occurs when a black hole is present (synergy/coherence). This may
be balanced against regain of phase-space volume due to wave function
collapse. (Decoherence). It looks almost like the menifestation of .A
affects B; and vice versa B affects A. principle.
Notice that I still have some puzzle or reservation on the .regain of
phase-space volume outside the black hole. because the fundamental
question is .how can nature quantum mechanically achieve volume gain.
though there exists a spin-network interpretation of volume gain but not
connected to this kind of information loss interpretation. Another
important question is how can one measure/decode bosonic /fermionic
information while it involves quantum spacetime geometry/topology changes
(phase-space volume increase due to decoherence/measurement) despite of
the No-Hair Theorem. This phase-space increase may cause or may be in a
form of bulk radiation at a very short (Planck scale) as a deBroglie wave
like a fire-ball radiates its flame out. Let me use an analogy. The black
hole pierces its surrounding geometry by releasing or radiating a
condensed but degenerating form of spacetime .dark matter. fireball. Are
we able to measure and decode this kind of spacetime geometry [itex]and/or[/itex] any
other information it carries?

End of the formal part.

Today saying: I really wish I could well understand the following papers:

[1] A.M. Polyakov, "String Theory and Quark Confinement" http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9711002
v1

On Edward Witten paper, "Anti-DeSitter Space and Holography", I wish to
understand much beyond his first paragraph.

Quote:
To understand the large N behavior of gauge theories with SU(N) gauge
group is a longstanding problem[1], and offers perhaps the best hope of
eventually understanding the classic strong coupling mysteries of QCD. It
has long been suspected that the large N behavior, if accessible at all,
should be described by string theory perhaps with Liouville fields and
higher dimensions. Lately, with hints coming from explorations of the near
event horizon structure of certain black hole metrics and investigations
[itex][8-12][/itex] of scattering from those metrics, Maldacena has made a remarkable
suggestion concerning the large N limit not of conventional SU(N) gauge
theories but of some their conformally invariant cousins..There has also
been a discussion of the flow to conformal field theory in some
cases[14]..One of the most surprising claims in [13] was that (for
example) to describe the N=4 super Yang-Mills theory in four dimensions,
one should use not just low energy supergravity on AdS5 but the whole
infinite tower of massive Kaluza-Klein states on [itex]AdS5xS^5[/itex]..

End quote.

Some sentences sound analogously familiar. For example, .The flow to
conformal field theory. corresponds to .a flow of spacetime geometry to
get turbulence and the rise of matter .. And .infinite tower of massive
Kaluza-Klein states. corresponds to .layer of a layer or boundary of
boundary states and can.t be felt as boundary by some virus-like cells
(new form of gauge bosons)..
If I understand their work on these areas more, I may know where should I
slip in the quantum spacetime coherence concept in the black hole
thermodynamics and an analogous one in QCD.

I hope you see that I am trying to connect my line of thought from BEC
condensate to black hole thermodynamics to a new .string field.
formulation of gauge field theory, and close in finding my long shot at a
new gauge field theory in which quantum spacetime synergetic effect
(enhancement/entanglement effect) can be manifested in some cases,
especially in QCD. If the superstring people find more results in these
areas, and I understand their work well enough, I could propose some
experiments to verify this property even without fully finding the
mathematical formulation of the theory.

Another saying:

..Strong in-phase nerve pulses fired at my in-phase BEC-like brain fluid.
The BEC recoiled and stayed in shape. The pulses might have bounced a few
times between a few BEC-like regions while remained in the nerve tube to
get further bosonic amplification/enhancement. The amplified/enhanced EM
pulses broke their critical boundaries and left my brain (might have
pierced the geometry outside my brain), and they carried the information
very likely in a bosonic form to somebody else brain. Which parts of a
brain decode the information coherently? And how?

I really think some quantum mechanical action is the proper cause of some
classical effect, and it might have a dual quantum mechanical back
reaction but, but not the other way round. So any current quantization
scheme of spacetime will be very likely not the true one if without any
coherence effect in it. It just simply missed another half of the story.

Let me put forward an analogy about the coherence effect. Think about two
individual people. Each of them can roam on the surface of the Earth
freely according to their free will. So their should have a total of 4
degrees of freedom of their phase space on the surface of the Earth. Now,
they are going to joint together to form as a single entity under a
shield. The single entity means the couple acts together at all time under
the shield. Let say no one can see through the shield, so we don't know
their sex, male--female combination or other combination under the shield.
If they act together, they lose two degrees of freedom but they gain in
some "force", say one people cannot move a rock but two togehter can move
the rock. This is the coherence effect of the two people uder the shield.
Since it is in fact the coherence/cooperative/enhancement effect of
quantum spacetime goemtry, I would like to coin the term I used in the
past, i.e., synergetic effect or synergism of quantum spacetime.
Incorporating these quantum mechanical effects may cost dearly for any
current quantum theory of spcetime, but it really depends on how can one
measure and get a consistent interpretation of these new effects.

This is too hard to be understood without a quantum field formulation of
current BEC phenomena. So another thought left in a region of spacetime
for the physicists of future generations..

Charles Hui

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