Mother who forgot her child was in car

Pythagorean

Yes. Is there any productive outcome of your method of handling the situation? I don't think so! If it would have been on purpose, you could have argued that you would be discouraging people from intentionally leaving their kids in the car for long hours (this would still be negligence if the mother wasn't trying to kill their kid.)

On the other hand, if she completely forgot, you're not going to discourage others from forgetting by making an example of this one (it's not something we consciously consider doing).

So, what's the point then? Retribution? "Justice?"

BobG

If there's more than one person hanging around outside the car, then that's something that's easy to do. We did that once on a TDY with about 5 of us hanging around the gas pump. We're all thinking that surely at least one of the other four people took the nozzle out!

And a friend and I did that with the lug nuts on my car, which was quite a bit more upsetting. Funny, I've never made that mistake again. In fact, I helped my son change his tire and wound up calling him after I got home to make sure he tightened the lug nuts, because I didn't check them when we were done.

Monique

Exactly, I was going to say the same.

cepheid

Yes, justice. As R.P.F said, unlike you with your colleague, a parent is legally responsible for his/her child. These laws exist to protect children from incompetent and/or uncaring parents!

How do you know that this mom is fraught with guilt over what happened? If she cared for her child, how could she allow this to happen in the first place? It's unthinkable! For a parent to be so absorbed with her own work and her own life that her child is not first and foremost in her thoughts is a rarity. At best, it suggests that she is not yet ready for and fully committed to the responsibility of parenthood. Slightly worse, it could be that she is a callous person. At worst, she could be some sort of sociopath.

Sure, I am making assumptions about her mental state. But so are you. I don't buy Pythagorean's argument above that having serious consequences for such egregiously bad parenting doesn't act as a deterrent to others. He argued that you don't make a conscious decision to forget to take your child out of the car -- by definition it is an accident. Sure, but it is a really really hard thing to forget *unless* if you are already a really careless and inattentive parent to begin with. Having this woman face consequences in the justice system should act as a wake up call to all such lackadaisical parents out there.

I consider myself a liberal. I'm not some sort of right-wing conservative who believes that we need to be "tough on crime." I know that that doesn't work. I just think that society should enforce the standard that such carelessness in something as important as looking after a human life is unacceptable.

Evo

She immediately remembered upon returning home and called 911. Her child wasn't even harmed, yet she was arrested and had her children taken away. How many parents smoke marijuana? How do we know that the woman that killed her son wasn't high? Except it was late in the day when she saw her dead son in the back of her car, so if she smoked a joint that morning, they wouldn't know. Or maybe she popped a couple of pain pills. It apears they did no drug tests on her. Or is she just too ditzy to be a competant parent? I can even see forgetting to stop at the day care, but how do you get out of your car without glancing at the car seat? That's so automatic in a parent.

People are arrested and prosecuted for leaving children in cars, or forgetting they are in the bath tub, or that the back door wasn't locked and the kid wandered outside and fell in the pool. It's called negligent homicide.

Heck it's against the law to leave an animal in a car in many states.

Pythagorean

That's just not true...

Catch up on the psychology of punishment in the last 40 years. Even when your directly accountable for intentional actions, punishment is not very effective. When it comes to "training" people not to forget with punishment, it's really a lost cause.

Alos, you don't know how good or bad her parenting was outside of her one mistake that made national news. Apparently, her record was clean if that's any indication.

Pythagorean

also, I've never forgotten my children so I'm not defending myself here, but their mother has moments where she'll be like "oh god, did I leave the car-seat (with baby) on the ground outside the car?" And of course she didn't, but she FORGETS having put the baby in. And she forgets a lot of things ever since having two children. It really changed her hormones and her biology a lot.

Evo

To be honest, lack of a record just means she hasn't been caught doing anything wrong. I doubt she's a criminal, but I think they should have checked her for drugs.

Pythagorean

That's true, but it doesn't mean she was doing something wrong behind our back either. And of course we assume innocence in the US. Her history plays an important role in determining whether she's liable. If we could assume that people just didn't get caught, we could put anyone in prison by claiming they were trying to crash their car into a federal building when they were just speeding.

But yes, she should have been tested for drugs, I agree. That would be indisputable negligence if she were positively tested.

cepheid

I kind of think that it is. Maybe I'll just have to take your word for it. I'm only in my 20's, but sometimes I'll forget whether I locked the door to my apartment when I left it. I've never actually forgotten to lock the door though! I've just had instances where I have no memory of doing so. The thing is that it's such a routine action that my mind is nearly always occupied with something else while doing it.

I would have thought that things would be really different with, say, *a baby*, but maybe not. The situation is not directly analogous to what I just described either. She wasn't distracted while doing something important. She was distracted *away from* doing something important!

If you are distracted enough to forget your kid in a car, I'd say that point to you being a bad parent, regardless Of whether your carelessness has ever had any bad repercussions before now.

I hear your argument, that punishment may not accomplish anything, but it still bothers me whenever people are not held responsible for their own actions. She caused a *death*. She should be held liable.

Monique

It has not been proven that the parent was incompetent or uncaring, you might not agree but there are instances that people are not held accountable for their actions. Our brain is not perfect, do you blame an amnesiac for not remembering your name?

The parent should definitely be investigated for their actions, but you can't be too quick to judge.

Pythagorean

Perhaps there is a flaw in your thinking, that something bothering you should influence the outcome of others. Perhaps these feelings of yours are common in many people, and are the source of a misguided justice system in the first place. A justice system built, not on scientific research, but on public demand and mob management.

cepheid

I see no need to devolve into hurling thinly-veiled insults.

My assertion is that people should be held responsible for their own actions. If you have any specific arguments against this statement, then by all means express them. But don't accuse me of being irrational and unscientific just because I maintain that our justice system should hold people accountable for their mistakes when those mistakes harm others.

This is a mistake of the utmost severity. Her negligence led to somebody's death. She killed her child. Unintentionally, yes, but she killed him nonetheless. If you think that this kind of reckless endangerment should be condoned, then I suppose that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I was much more willing to listen to you when you weren't being supercilious and condescending.

Monique

cepheid, you must be aware that there are countries that don't use a citizen jury system in the courtroom. Where I live experts are used to judge whether someone should be held accountable, not a person on the street.

edward

We have this happen several times per year here in Tucson and the heat is brutal.

Babies and small children being left in vehicles over recent years is happening all too frequently

I have read about numerous incidents, including a police officer who left his K9 in his car.
And yes the poor dog did die.

From everything that I have read I have come to the conclusion that their is usually a defining event or distraction at a crucial point. That crucial event may have been a poor nights sleep the night before.

Last year a couple here left their 6 month old baby in the back seat of their SUV in the baby carrier while they went into a restaurant to meet a real estate agent. The mother remembered just in time, the baby was take to the hospital in distress but survived.

They claimed that they were excited about buying a new home. yep it happens

One factor that exists with most vehicle situations is visibility. Babies are now in a carrier in the back seat and facing backward. In many vehicles the driver can't even see a babies head while driving.

Most vehicles here have tinted windows with heavily tinted rear windows. A person can step out of a vehicle and not visibly see the child. Taller headrests on the front seat make the matter worse.

All of the incidents here have happened in the daytime. Once out of the vehicle in the bright sun the rear seat of my minivan looks like a dark cavern. It could happen at night and go unreported. Although the inside of my minivan is lit up like a ball field at night with six interior lights.

One or more of the following three is always present. Drive for ten or more minutes without visual contact. There is a visual or other unexpected event when exiting the vehicle. The person is fatigued.

It can be something as little as a slight change in routine.

Last Thursday, Friday, and Saturday my son worked 12 hour days. He took both his car and his wife's car in for maintenace at some point during the week.

On Saturday morning at 8:00 AM his usual parking place was taken. He had to park at the rear of the building out of sight. When he finally got ready to leave work at 9:00 PM he called his wife to come and pick him up.

Neither one of them realized the mistake until they pulled into their driveway and a car was missing.

cepheid

Alright, I see where the thrust of the argument is going then. The question seems to be not whether she was negligent and is punishable under the US law (which she is), but whether that law is sound in the first place. I argued that (1) it existed for a reason, to prevent such tragedies, and to reduce the instance of such unbelievably (stupendously) careless behaviour on the part of parents. I also was of the opinion that (2) people who do endanger others in this manner should be punished, simply for the sake of accountability. You argue that it is not effective for purpose (1) EDIT: for the sake honesty, you also argued that although she may have been negligent under the law, there is no evidence that this was necessarily incompetence or carelessness. You also argued that purpose (2) is of questionable merit. Let's agree to disagree on (2). If it is not effective for (1), then I guess the law's existence could be called into question. Should the law be changed? Monique seems to be saying that best approach is to evaluate situations on a case by case basis, using experts on human psychology to evaluate culpability. That certainly sounds very reasonable.

Look, I'm sorry if I got a little heated before, but I don't like supercilious people, and I don't enjoy being belittled. Sometimes it takes time to evaluate all the implications of an argument. In some ways, I'm still not over what this mother did, and I have a great deal of trouble accepting that such an oversight could even be possible (EDIT and I'm embarrassed to see that I'm preceded by a post indicating that it happens *all too often*). But we are faced with the harsh reality that it CAN and DOES happen, and we need to think carefully about what to do about it. Thank you for your arguments and insights.

cepheid, out.

TheMadMonk

Why should somebody be forced to submit to a drugs test when there is no evidence that drugs were involved? This mindset that drugs must somehow be involved in every incident baffles me quite frankly, people forget things all the time without any substance misuse being to blame.

Whilst many people seem to disagree, I do not believe parents to be infallible. They make mistakes like everybody else and unfortunately this mistake has resulted in the death of a child, which although tragic, isn't criminal in my opinion.