Should Police Use of Drones Be Permitted?

russ_watters

Unmarked cars are covert and police helicopters can see into your backyard from the air. Do you have similar concerns about these tools?

*DaveC426913*

Quote by phinds

One of the issues is that the military drones can take videos of what you do in your back yard and if the military doesn't like what it sees (you have too many bags of fertilizer so might be a bomb-maker) they can act on it. I do NOT think of my back yard as a public space.

But they do not need drones to obtain this kind of intel, so how are drones exceptional?

*ThomasT*

Quote by CAC1001

So police departments nationwide are seeking to acquire drones as they are cheaper and so effective. I was just watching Special Report, and Charles Krauthammer said they should be banned outright, which I found interesting, as usually neoconservatives (like him) are the ones who differ from the more libertarian conservatives and libertarians, and the left, when it comes to increasing police power and government powers to catch terrorists and criminals and so forth. For example, how the left and the libertarians all disdain the Patriot Act but the neoconservatives are generally okay with it. Or attitudes toward a strong standing military, where the libertarians are only for a very small military capable of defense, while neoconservatives reason that in the modern world, we have to have a big strong powerful standing military.

Krauthammer said that police having drones goes too far however, that drones are an instrument of war, and should not be flying over America as a method of law enforcement. He said even if they do not intend to abuse them, their use will end up being abused.

Was wondering people's opinions on this as I really didn't have an opinion on this. Normally, if it was just the Ron Paul types and maybe the ACLU railing over it, I'd reason that they were probably blowing something not so serious way out of proportion (for example Ron Paul is against the border fence on the idea that it could be used to keep Americans in), but now I am not so sure. They said this could allow a real-life version of "black helicopters" if you will. I also understand that in this modern era, police forces do have to be more "militarized" if you will, especially in the big cities where they sometimes are counter-terrorism capable and often more like a paramilitary force in certain ways, but there is a limit.

I think that drones are ok. Unlike many police officers I know, drones aren't emotionally or intellectually challenged. I welcome increased surveillance, to a point, because I don't intend to commit any crimes, and I think it increases police ability to protect the law abiding public. When I go out in public, I'm not exercising my right to privacy any more. So, surveil me in public all you want. No problem. But, break into my house and you just might receive a load of buckshot.

Office_Shredder

Unlike many police officers I know, drones aren't emotionally or intellectually challenged.

This is just about the worst logic I have heard in a while. Do you realize that there are people flying these machines?

*ThomasT*

Quote by Office_Shredder

This is just about the worst logic I have heard in a while. Do you realize that there are people flying these machines?

Yes, and the operators are removed from immediated danger. So, I suppose, less susceptible to panic, emotional distress, intellectual meltdown, etc.

When I say emotionally and intellectually challenged, it's wrt the potential emotional and intellectual demands of the job. My guess is that they're essentially well-meaning people -- but some people who are cops probably shouldn't be. Just my opinion. But put that same person who's ill-equipped to handle a situation in person behind the controls of a surveillance drone ... no problem. Just my current opinion.

phinds

Quote by DaveC426913

But they do not need drones to obtain this kind of intel, so how are drones exceptional?

Good point, and I don't know that they are (although come to think of it, I'm sure drones can get better resolution to ground level than satellites) , I just object to the fact that, according to what I read/saw, the military has absolutely no civilian oversight in this regard.

russ_watters

I think you are getting mixed up here. This is not about the military spying on civilian (that's illegal), it is about the police using military derived/related technology.

phinds

Quote by russ_watters

I think you are getting mixed up here. This is not about the military spying on civilian (that's illegal), it is about the police using military derived/related technology.

I agree that I took that thread on a side-trip. That was because of a news article I saw yesterday. The military DOES spy on civilians and as long as they do it "inadvertently" it not only is legal, it is not subject to civilian oversight, according to this article.

Office_Shredder

I agree that I took that thread on a side-trip. That was because of a news article I saw yesterday. The military DOES spy on civilians and as long as they do it "inadvertently" it not only is legal, it is not subject to civilian oversight, according to this article

Can you source this?

*Alfi*

Quote by russ_watters

I think you are getting mixed up here. This is not about the military spying on civilian (that's illegal), it is about the police using military derived/related technology.

Is it? ( the bolded part) ?

phinds

Quote by Office_Shredder

Can you source this?

I'll poke around and see what I can find. I'm very clear on what was said but I don't remember whether it was a CNN news show or a BBC on-line article, or what.

EDIT: OK, a quick search turned this up. This is a blog on CNN, and it contains that same statement that I recall.

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...ans/?hpt=hp_t2

There is an Air Force document that says if unmanned drones accidentally capture surveillance footage of Americans, they can keep the information for up to 90 days and analyze it. Where is that in the Constitution?

The program that I watched added the fact that there is no civilian oversight of this process.

lisab

Quote by phinds

I'll poke around and see what I can find. I'm very clear on what was said but I don't remember whether it was a CNN news show or a BBC on-line article, or what.

Yes, I saw it too -

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012...-domestic-spy/

phinds

Quote by lisab

Yes, I saw it too -

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012...-domestic-spy/

Thanks. That's actually a different one than what I saw, but it says the same things.

russ_watters

Quote by Alfi

Is it? ( the bolded part) ?

It isn't black and white, but essentially the US military cannot be employed domestically except in case of armed insurrection or natural disaster. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

According to the wiki, the insurrection act was invoked to put down the LA riots, though no actual military engagement happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_Riots

russ_watters

Quote by phinds

I agree that I took that thread on a side-trip. That was because of a news article I saw yesterday. The military DOES spy on civilians and as long as they do it "inadvertently" it not only is legal, it is not subject to civilian oversight, according to this article.

I vehemently object to your characterization. If a member of the military witnesses a civilian crime while on duty and reports it, that is most certainly not spying. That's being an upstanding, responsible member of society. What this directive does is extend/clarify that concept when applied to video captured during training.

russ_watters

Anyway, back to the point of the thread:

Quote by russ_watters

Unmarked cars are covert and police helicopters can see into your backyard from the air. Do you have similar concerns about these tools?

CAC1001

Quote by russ_watters

Unmarked cars are covert and police helicopters can see into your backyard from the air. Do you have similar concerns about these tools?

Unmarked cars aren't flying overhead and able to see you in the way drones are able to. And helicopters you can generally hear and even see. Drones are silent and invisible to the naked eye.

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russ_watters Mentor	Should Police Use of Drones Be Permitted? Unmarked cars are covert and police helicopters can see into your backyard from the air. Do you have similar concerns about these tools?