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Legal Killing of Enemies in Iraq?

 
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May22-12, 11:11 PM   #1
 

Legal Killing of Enemies in Iraq?


A guy I met who had served in the US Military in Iraq told me the following unbelievable story: in Iraq, he claimed, a person can get court permission to kill someone who has wronged them. He has to go before a judge and prove that the person in question did something severely wrong, humiliating, or unjust. If the judge agrees the offense was bad enough, he will issue that person a license to kill the other person, and he can set about trying to do that without the target having any warning.

This sounds like what I would have to call a 'military legend' (an urban legend confined to military circles).

I googled a few things but couldn't find anything. "Legal killing" gets automatically attached to Bush, etc.

Anyone know enough about Iraqi law to rule the existence of such a thing out?
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May23-12, 12:16 AM   #2
 
Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
A guy I met who had served in the US Military in Iraq told me the following unbelievable story: in Iraq, he claimed, a person can get court permission to kill someone who has wronged them. He has to go before a judge and prove that the person in question did something severely wrong, humiliating, or unjust. If the judge agrees the offense was bad enough, he will issue that person a license to kill the other person, and he can set about trying to do that without the target having any warning.

This sounds like what I would have to call a 'military legend' (an urban legend confined to military circles).

I googled a few things but couldn't find anything. "Legal killing" gets automatically attached to Bush, etc.

Anyone know enough about Iraqi law to rule the existence of such a thing out?
That doesn't sound likely in Iraq. Until a few years ago, it was a secular dictatorship, and I can't imagine such behavior to be tolerated in such a system. Now, Iraq is supposed to be a democracy under close watch of the US, and I can't imagine the US would support such a policy either.

If you told me that that policy existed in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I'd be more inclined to believe it, because religious courts are stronger there.

Unfortunately, I don't have any knowledge of Iraq's legal system. I can just confirm that my "baloney detector" is going off just as yours did when hearing this.
May23-12, 12:20 AM   #4
 

Legal Killing of Enemies in Iraq?


This link doesn't mention anything about Iraq. Iraq has been a secular country for most of modern history, and in very recent years has been somewhat of a US puppet.
May23-12, 02:28 AM   #5
 
Quote by Jack21222 View Post
This link doesn't mention anything about Iraq. Iraq has been a secular country for most of modern history, and in very recent years has been somewhat of a US puppet.
Most Iraqis are Muslims. It could well be the government lets the in situ religious system handle day-to-day justice in the traditional way.
May23-12, 04:59 AM   #6
 
As Thomas points out it sounds like Sharia law. I believe that the Shiites have been holdouts on the new government and attempting to go to sharia law. It would certainly seem possible that in Shiite controlled areas they attempt to enforce sharia. They may even be going before non government sanctioned sharia arbitrators and local government may be forced, or choose, to turn a blind eye. Of course this is just speculation. A quick search shows "sharia advancing in Iraq" but the sources all look like blogs and many biased at that. None of them seem to mentioned sanctioned murder either, primarily a particular city that has banned alcohol.
May23-12, 06:25 AM   #7
 
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What he said might be true in rare instances by Sharia law, but it's definitely not true about Iraq's laws in recent history. Iraqi Civil Law: Its Sources, Substance, and Sundering

Like many Middle Eastern countries, Iraq's laws have been influenced by Sharia law, but also by many other sources. Since World War II and definitely since the 50's, the roots of Iraq's laws are mostly influenced by French civil law, the Mejelle (a series of law codes influenced by the Ottoman empire), with Sharia law traditions providing acceptable guidance for judges (especially in family law) if no other law covers the situation.

Iraq's new, post-invasion constitution gives more influence to religions and religious leaders, plus prohibits discrimination based on gender - a seeming paradox, not to mention that, theoretically at least, family law will be governed by whatever religion a person belongs to. In other words, next door neighbors may have different laws for divorce because they belong to a different religion. But even with a constitution that provides for more religious influence, I'd say a return to ancient Sharia law would be pretty unlikely.

While the constitution seems to indicate some drastic changes for the future, in practice, Iraq has no more scrapped the laws that have worked for them for decades than the US did when we implemented our own constitution. Court tradition carries a lot of weight.

His story is similar to claiming a person in the West can be hanged for horse rustling.
May23-12, 06:47 AM   #8
 
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Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
...unbelievable story: in Iraq, he claimed, a person can get court permission to kill someone ...
Quote by BobG View Post
His story is similar to claiming a person in the West can be hanged for horse rustling.
maybe a case of
Quote by Andre View Post
enemy image building? Creating your own enemy: Those d..... are so vicious, they could have done it, so we can easily say they did it. They would have anyway.
May23-12, 07:17 AM   #9
 
Thanks everyone.

I read Thomas' wiki article. It gave me the idea the tall tale I heard might be a case of telephone, or Chinese Whispers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers

applied to this:

There are four categories of crimes in sharia law, qisas, hudud, tazir, and siyastan. Qisas involves personal injury and has several categories: intentional murder (first-degree), quasi-intentional murder (second-degree), unintentional murder (manslaughter), intentional injury, and semi-intentional/unintentional injury. A qisas (retaliation) offense is treated as a common law tort rather than a crime against the state. If the accused party is found guilty, the victim (or in death, victim's family) determines the punishment, choosing either retribution (qisas-e-nafs), which means execution in the case of intentional murder, and in cases of intentional battery, the amputation of the limb that was lost; or they can choose to forgive the perpetrator. If they forgive the perpetrator, they can receive blood money compensation (diyya) for the loss of life/limb/injury. The sharia judge can only convict someone for a qisas crime, the victim/victim's family determines the punishment. However, if the victim's family pardons the criminal, in addition to the sharia punishment the criminal would normally receive a tazir prison sentence (such as ten to twenty years in prison) for crimes such as "intentional loss of life", "tazir assault and battery" "disturbance of the peace", and so forth. However, if the murder/injury was unpremeditated (such as during a fight or if there were mitigating factors), then the person would be released after paying the blood money, or spend a short time in prison.
specifically the part about the victim/victim's family determining the punishment. Retold around the barracks often enough, it might evolve into the whacky story I heard. I can imagine bored 18 year old Marines going from, "The victim's family gets to decide if the offender is executed or just goes to jail," to, "The victim get's legal permission to go out and kill the offender."
May25-12, 08:24 AM   #10
 
I served in Iraq and had the oppritunity to work closely with several of our native translators.

They explained that local justice is by and large handled by the "clan" leadership. If you wrong a person in the same clan bad enough your leaders may grant you permission to kill them. This typically requires a warning that often consists of tossing a red rug or other marker infront of the house of the intended victim.

Disspute between different tribes or clans often involve violence and rarely warranted more then token offical police involvement.

In my experiance there are not "legal killings" in the judicial system there are simply killings that are accepted and ignored.
May25-12, 11:23 PM   #11
 
Quote by Oltz View Post
I served in Iraq and had the oppritunity to work closely with several of our native translators.

They explained that local justice is by and large handled by the "clan" leadership. If you wrong a person in the same clan bad enough your leaders may grant you permission to kill them. This typically requires a warning that often consists of tossing a red rug or other marker infront of the house of the intended victim.

Disspute between different tribes or clans often involve violence and rarely warranted more then token offical police involvement.

In my experiance there are not "legal killings" in the judicial system there are simply killings that are accepted and ignored.
Very interesting! Without being exactly analogous, these "clans" then, may bear more relation to the Sicilian Mafia or Chinese Tongs than anything else.
May25-12, 11:35 PM   #12
 
Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
Very interesting! Without being exactly analogous, these "clans" then, may bear more relation to the Sicilian Mafia or Chinese Tongs than anything else.
Yes, I think that this might be the case in many communities. That is, the law and practice of justice within any particular community might differ somewhat from governmental law. I don't know, because I've never lived in a society that allows what the OP is talking about.
May26-12, 12:10 AM   #13
 
Quote by ThomasT View Post
Yes, I think that this might be the case in many communities. That is, the law and practice of justice within any particular community might differ somewhat from governmental law. I don't know, because I've never lived in a society that allows what the OP is talking about.
The important thing Oltz's post clarifies is that this isn't actually legal, just that the official police don't do anything about such killings, as embodied in the closing line of the movie: "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." The whole thing makes more sense this way as opposed to the way the guy described it to me as being legal. The police in the U.S. now don't put themselves out of their way too much to solve murders they are sure are gang related. It's too difficult to get anyone in that world to testify against anyone else.
May26-12, 01:07 AM   #14
 
Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
The important thing Oltz's post clarifies is that this isn't actually legal, just that the official police don't do anything about such killings, as embodied in the closing line of the movie: "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
I don't think that's quite the case in the US. And I hope it never comes to that.

Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
The whole thing makes more sense this way as opposed to the way the guy described it to me as being legal.
Well, legal is as legal does, so to speak. I think there might be reason to believe that religious law supercedes governmental law in certain locales.

Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
The police in the U.S. now don't put themselves out of their way too much to solve murders they are sure are gang related. It's too difficult to get anyone in that world to testify against anyone else.
I don't know that that's the case. I hope it isn't.

Not to be too cynical, but I suspect that law enforcement in locations of high gang activity aren't too concerned about gang x killing members of gang y, and vice versa. Personally, I'm not overly concerned about gang members killing each other. The more the better, imo.

Anyway, back to the OP. It seems to me to be quite reasonable to suppose that in regions where religion reigns supreme that provincial religious customs would trump governmental dictates. In other words, I think there might be some truth in what your friend said.
May26-12, 03:47 AM   #15
 
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I have lived in three different Muslim countries, Iran, Turkey, and Egypt, for a total of eight years. I also was married to a Turkish woman. Although I am not of the Muslim faith I do have intimate familiarity with some of their customs. Under both Shiite (Iran) and Sunni (Turkey and Egypt) branches of Islam an ocassional killing as in the OP's story does actually occur.

In these extremely religious groups civil law can be secondary or meaningless, just as ThomasT writes above. Religious law and social customs often govern the resolution of disputes. But someone has to do some really, really terrible and bad things (like rape or messing with another's wife) before the local mullah would sanction such a killing.

When westerners live in other cultures they need to be very careful to know the limits of behavior and possible reprecussions of misbehavior. They also must try not to publicly voice disagreement with the local system. After all, even though the foreigner may strongly disagree with some custom, it is not his position to judge for the native population what is right or wrong.

I am not so familiar with PF rules regarding religious discussions, but is there perhaps a Muslim member who would care to comment on this?
May26-12, 07:16 AM   #16
 
Quote by Bobbywhy View Post
Under both Shiite (Iran) and Sunni (Turkey and Egypt) branches of Islam an ocassional killing as in the OP's story does actually occur.

In these extremely religious groups civil law can be secondary or meaningless, just as ThomasT writes above. Religious law and social customs often govern the resolution of disputes. But someone has to do some really, really terrible and bad things (like rape or messing with another's wife) before the local mullah would sanction such a killing.
Thanks for the interesting information. What exactly is a "mullah"? Is this a kind of clan or tribal leader, or a religious leader?
May26-12, 09:22 AM   #17
 
@ Bobbywhy,
Wrt your post #15, that's interesting. It puts your statements about this stuff in a different context than I had imagined.

I was just guessing based on my experience in the US and what I've read that it's best not to judge others actions out of hand because they might be behaving according to different rules. Living comfortably in middle class society in the US, it's easy to forget, or just be unaware of, the fact that some societies take their religion very very seriously -- as in life or death seriously.

Regarding what's allowed at PF, I'm pretty sure that you can make statements about the content of laws/rules of any religion. What's off limits, because it often degenerates into emotional rants, are judgemental statements regarding the doctrines of any religion, and the social mores of any particular religious group.

Islamic (Sharia) justice might seem a bit harsh to most Americans. But it seems to me that its basic concept of justice is pretty much the same as with middle class America. Just that the penalties for breaking the rules are much more severe. Tough love, eh?
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