Nine Months Later - Career Guidance Still Needed More Than Ever

TheEigenvalue

Ok. I am still left, however, with the main question un-answered despite everything else (be it good or bad that it was discussed):

What type of rewarding jobs could I look into getting? And by rewarding, think of yourselves in the job, considering most of the folks on this forum tend to have a similar outlook on things and many also want or have wanted/dreamed of being a research professor.

As for my "attitude problem", I think that in "real life" no one has any idea, other than my immediate family and friends, of how miserably bitter and hateful I am. I have many, many years of practice for "putting on a smile" and all of that stuff that people enjoy. I simply felt that, since I was seeking advice on an anonymous forum, I would "let my guard down" and express my true emotions rather than mask them like I do for the general public.

As for my actual resume, it is very good. The only flaws being that I have random gaps of time without work experience, but I can't fix that. That would require finding a cure for Schizoaffective Disorder that doesn't turn one into a walking zombie.

As for the fact that I am so bitter about it and everyone's suggestion that I "see my psychiatrist about it", like I said, I have been in therapy for nearly a DECADE trying to come to terms with this horrible condition. I have made next to nil progress despite trying harder than I tried to make it through those Analysis problem sets. In fact, I have had to switch therapists at least five times because they all get to the point where they literally admit: "I have no idea how I can help you anymore. Sorry". And frankly, that scares the crap out of me.

It is such a shame that I was born into a lower-midde/working-class family and not some sort of aristocracy. For the aristocracy, not having a job is seen as a good thing and not a character flaw!!

If you feel you have some sort of "wise advice" you could give me about how to settle my bitter mind, feel free to tell it to me. I am not hurt anymore by harsh words than I am hurt by the raw reality of how unlucky my life has been. Nothing on earth could hurt more than that realization.

daveyrocket

As far as your medications and their side-effects go, I doubt anyone here is any more qualified than a psychiatrist to give you advice on it. I assume you've already looked into any sort of government assistance for disability, or any job placement for people with psychiatric disabilities, but if you haven't that might be something to look into.

And I know it's hard to change your attitude. The thing is the negative and bitter attitude will likely continue to make things worse for you. It's a vicious cycle; bad life circumstances -> bitter attitude -> worse life circumstances -> even more bitter attitude. You have to break out of it. I don't have any idea how; you've probably tried all the SSRI's and whatever else is used to treat depressive disorders that's out there. But if you don't find a way to turn it around it will be difficult to improve your life circumstances.

ParticleGrl

I think most people have talked a bit about their job- and the common factor is all jobs have mundane tasks. Personally, I do data analysis for an insurance company. Lately, its been about 20% fun and exciting, 80% routine task. This is a similar mix to graduate school for me (I loved starting new projects and that difficult period of trying new things to find what works, I found writing up the projects to publish fairly mundane, as was dealing with reviewers. I loved lecturing and office hours, but absolutely hated grading, etc).

Basically, even the best jobs have a lot of mundane tasks you have to do. You have to have the maturity to do the mundane tasks that need doing.

Nano-Passion

Hey Eigenvalue, I have always admired your perseverance. My brother also has schizophrenic disorder, but the difference between you two is astonishing. Perhaps it was due to him being off medication for such a period of time.

Reflecting on the previous thread, it is good that you have an interest (my brother has virtually none even after effort on my part), but please do try to spread yourself out. Do not pigeonhole your spectrum of interest to only mathematics. Life is too beautiful and intricate to only have a passion for one thing. I say, have a passion for many things! There are a lot of other intellectual ventures that are such as exciting and beautiful in their own way. I say this because it is not healthy to one's self worth when their sole interest is in a field that has banished them. Your self worth is most definitely not attached to mathematics.

If I remember correctly, you are from NJ? If so, there is a program that helps you land a job (I will notify you of the program's name once my other brother comes home from work). My brother applied to it recently. If you don't live in NJ, there might also be similar programs to aid you.

Nano-Passion

I'm not sure what jobs will be satisfying for you, but there are a couple of programs that support people who are in your state that can give you things like housing and money allowances. Please do a google search.

You don't have to work full time. And in fact, if you consult one of the programs that my brother applied for in employment, they might find you the intellectually stimulating job that you seek for part-time. But please also note that, no matter what, there will always be grunt work.

Also, if you want people to suggest jobs then please give a list of things that you would like. For example, do you like programming?

Nano-Passion

I'm not sure why people are insisting to do the "tough talk" with Eigenvalue. In fact, I find it offensive. Schizophrenia is a neural condition, and epso facto affects a variety of things in an individual. Unless your a licensed psychiatrist and your absolutely know what your doing, DO NOT try the tough approach. Especially not to someone who has centered their life around one thing and only to have it stripped away. You will do more harm than good. Individuals who have centered their life around one thing face an unhealthy and unstable peace of mind once that is taken away.

Unless you know how schizophrenia and how medication affects the dynamics of the brain, then please, keep the uninformed comments to yourself. Because you are doing more bad than good.

Eigenvalue, I will refer bpatrick to this topic. Having a background in terms of the brain; I believe he will be better suited to help you.

Excuse me, I'm not Eigenvalue-- but I find that highly offensive.

The whole philosophy of "you can do whatever you set your mind to" is neat and all; but it does not take into account a myriad of factors. However, that is not to say that one shouldn't be as positive minded as possible.

TheEigenvalue

Nano-Passion: Thank you very much for taking a look at my thread. Having a loved one with the disorder yourself, you clearly can grasp some of the aspects that are hard to simply define in words or write in the DSM-IV manual.

I live in PA now and I recently received a packet about a program to "ease" into a job run by the State. I talked with my mother about it the other day and I figure it is worth looking into. I mean, if it is just menial jobs and such, there was no harm done in simply looking. So I might as well look into it.

I agree that when a person pigeon-holes their entire life, it puts them in a very dangerous position should, in the very unlikely but possible case, something happen in their lives that strips it from them. I suppose my situation is analogous to an Olympic track runner who suffers permanent nerve damage in their legs or something.

So I guess it can be advice to ANY of us: While you still can, broaden your life so you aren't defined by one thing.

Nano-Passion

What is the program's objective? My brother's program is there to help him get a job that is suited for him, they do all the work in finding a job. I'll send you the name of it by the end of the day or tomorrow.

No it happens often. Think of all the people who studied their whole lives in one area, only to have to look for a job somewhere else. Theoretical physics comes to mind.

It isn't too late. You can start now. Personally, I've went from liking nothing, to liking pretty much everything. During my internship this summer, I've also picked up a hobby in programming. +1 for the list.

You can always increase your interest, so long as you pursue a field that is closely related. From mathematics you can increase your range of interest by things like physics, mathematical neuroscience, and so on. In fact that is how my interest spread. It started from physics, then went on to mathematics. From neuroscience to psychology and biology. So on and so forth.

Nano-Passion

Have you spoken to your psychiatrist about motivation problems?

One person suggested GABA complex [last post in this link--> http://www.health-forums.com/alt-sup...ion-31285.html ]. You should aim to confirm the accuracy of his statement though.

NegativeDept

You probably already know this, but just in case: John Nash, Jr. had schizophrenia and was still an extremely productive math researcher. I think he first developed serious symptoms after getting his PhD, so it's a different situation. Still, it might be helpful to read about him and the techniques he used to control his illness.
It's quite difficult to get a quant interview with an undergrad degree and no network. But more importantly: quant jobs are usually high-pressure and require VERY long hours and lots of programming. (I haven't worked as a quant, but I've read lots of books and posts by quants, and they are nearly unanimous about this.) So IMO, quant jobs are a terrible match for your career goals.
It sounds as if you enjoy teaching mathematics, take pride in it, and are very good at it. Based on what little I know about you, a teaching job sounds like a smart bet. The hours are not always awful and it sounds like you deal well with the type of stress that job imposes.

Adjunct professors, community college instructors, and high school teachers don't make quant money, but not all of them are poor, either. Assuming you're in the US, the biggest problem will be getting stuck as "part-time" or "independent contractor" status with no company-sponsored health insurance. That would leave you with a pre-existing condition in the completely dysfunctional individual insurance market. But if you can find a teaching position with solid health coverage, you might be able to get steady treatment for your illness. Then you could finally get back to learning math and/or doing original research!

Wayn3

I have not read most of the thread but am going to comment on possible options that I know about:

1. Quant

The quant world is in limbo right now. The stressful hours and shitty overall working conditions are the same as they were in the past, but people are not making the big moneys anymore. The number of available jobs is decreasing and any available position is filled by someone experienced who is taking a big pay cut just to have a job.

You wont get in here. Not if you were in perfect health and a top3 MIT graduate willing to work 16hours a day 6 days a week. Even if you could, this would be the worst possible fit for your situation.

2. Consulting firms

Like Boston Consulting Group. Similar problems. Long hours, but boring *** work in addition. Not something you would want to get into, taking into account you wanting to do so interesting work.

3. Market Makers - Trading

Examples: Optiver, Tibra Trading, IMC, Jane Street blablabla

Not as well known firms, but potential to get rich real fast. These require you to be really fast at mental arithmetic and good at "problem solving" (read typical IQ test questions). Long hours are expected but the environment is friendly and lots of fun. I imagine this to be stressful though.

This is the career path ill take soon.


From what youve said, I imagine all of these to be not a good fit for your health. The problem with getting rich is that you need to be able to put in the hours. But I dont imagine getting rich to be your #1 priority. "Having a job" is somewhat of a different goal.

Have you considered teaching? Is this beneath you? In my opinion, thats a good fit. From what Ive heard, teachers make not all that much money in exchange for a relaxed lifestyle. You could do research in your spare time at your own pace. This might be different from the prestigious assistant professor, but sadly, we have to play the hand life deals us. Maybe it a spends a bit solace that most (all) "professors" dont really do research anyway. Theyre more like a manager of people who do research, so its not at all different from a boring manager position at some firm.


Feel free to contact me via pm if youre interested in learning more about something. Maybe the harsh words youve heard are because youve tried to enter one of the most competitive fields while explaining that you cant work their hours, which might have come off a bit strange.

TheEigenvalue

Hello, again, everyone. I have had a good five days to think through this now since I got the original replies to my post. I decided to wait awhile for the 'dust to settle' before I would post something inflammatory because my condition makes me view everything in a very paranoid light and what was written to my on the first page made me feel threatened even though I know objectively it is not so. That is just how the brain works in Schizophrenic-disorders (or at least the Paranoid variety which I have).

So it seems like the ideal of making a "cool million" as a quant (I had forgotten what the term was haha) isn't looking so good for ANYONE, so I guess I shouldn't feel bad about not being one of those folks since they are likely in a position of high employment 'volatility' (to pun on the current quantitative economic situation...)

I perhaps should have explained how my disability affects me RIGHT NOW in more detail rather than explaining it in the past. Currently, although I am on a very fine-tuned medication regimen, I still suffer the following, and it is unlikely that will EVER change unless an entirely new breed of antipsychotics is developed. And according to one "specialist" psychiatrist I saw for a time, it will likely be 10-15 years before that happens as the patents haven't worn out for the so-called "Atypical" antipsychotics (which I take - Zyprexa/Olanzapine). But they aren't that atypical as they still have the same pharmacological profile as things like Haldol and Thorazine. So, my current struggles:

1. Energy levels - I struggle to get out of my antipsychotic-induced fog in the morning. I always get up before 8:30 am no matter what (setting a routine is important with such an illness), but it takes until 12:00 noon until I am "functional". Then I have a short window from like 12:00 pm - 5:00 pm where I can do stuff.

2. Motivation - Psychosis literally atrophies the part of the brain responsible for motivation (the Meso-Cortical Dopamine Pathway), so I struggle to do anything more than simply 'existing'.

3. Residual paranoia/ anger - even with all the meds, I still find people very threatening.

4. Bitterness - at the loss of my dream because of a biological/genetic flaw.

As for teaching, I am not opposed to it in itself, but it is what comes WITH teaching I don't like. For example, as a TA (which, recall, I was considered the best they had in 25 years), all I did was lecture, have office hours, and do minor grading and grade entering. With HS, I would have to be a baby-sitter, I would have to deal with "teaching to the test" and all of the political aspects of teaching, in addition to mostly teaching relatively boring stuff. I would imagine they wouldn't let me teach "the good stuff" like AP Calc until I was well-established.

That's my update.

PS - What does an entry level HS Math or Physics teacher even make? Is it really enough to be able to live on one's own without having to sacrifice eating meals and such?

Nano-Passion

If I was you, I would take advantage of some of the programs set in place to help you. Also, based on your symptoms, I wager that a part-time job would suit you best.

You should message John Nash and develop a dialogue with him. It would be nice to see things from his perspective to receive advice from someone who was in a similar position as yours.

Actually on second thought, I'm not sure if he would offer good advice. He is against taking medicine while having schizophrenia, and took his medication only whilst under pressure. From my experiences, not taking medicine is like deciding to kill your brain slowly because your cognitive processes only get worst.

nevere

i'm in sort of the same situation as you are, from what you've said i belive you need to find a medication that is more effective so you can stay awake and control symtoms before you start looking for work.

if you don't mind me asking, what kind of medications are you on?

StatGuy2000

To the other posters here, I find it quite surprising that many of you consider teaching (in particular high school teaching) as a low-stress job. From what I recall when I was in high school (many years ago), teachers often expended considerable energy in handling the "troublemakers" (i.e. the smart-asses, the class clowns, the disruptive types, etc.) on top of teaching the curriculum. Frankly, this is hardly what I call "low-stress", and is certainly not a good fit for someone with paranoid tendencies.

To the OP:

I am so sorry to hear about your predicament, and truly feel for your situation. I know someone who suffered a serious mental illness (one of my close friends is her legal guardian), and understand how she struggles just to get by on a daily basis.

In an ideal situation, you really should have someone in your life who can help you to cope and adjust to your day-to-day activities and providing for your welfare (as my friend does); in the absence of that, I'm not sure what I can suggest.

I concur with what Nano-Passion states that perhaps a part-time position may be best. Since you already have a mathematical background, perhaps I can suggest that you spend the time when you are most functional to teaching yourself some programming languages, so that perhaps you can take on a part-time telecommuting position in software or IT work. These are intellectually challenging and since you are telecommuting, you don't have to directly interact with people face-to-face. Anything related to phone work could also be an option.

Just my humble 2 cents worth here. I wish you all the best.

NegativeDept

I didn't mean to imply that it's low-stress! I've been in and out of teaching work for almost 15 years, and I agree that it can be very stressful. I only mean to say that it's a particular type of stress for which some people are better suited than others.
Hm, that does sound like a valid and important point.

I suggested teaching because it sounds like TheEigenvalue has a track record of doing well as a teacher. OP: in your experience, did your condition negatively affect your teaching? I know some people find that teaching gives them mental clarity - and for others, it's quite the opposite.

Riothamus

I am afraid I am in a position to provide nothing authoritative, only recommendations based on personal experience, personal observation, and casual reading.

As far as the matter of employment, have you considered trying to go into business for yourself? For example, you loved the process of teaching - perhaps offering yourself as a private tutor. This would let you target people who need to learn things, skip most of the politics, and perhaps most advantageously allow you to select your own hours. You could even target college kids. Try for a school near you with a high population of upper class students.

Another related suggestion would be to find something enabling you to work from home, which often are flexible on the subject of hours and furthermore would insulate you from various stressors, i.e. being in public or a group work environment.

As a final note on employment, you mentioned that you are 25. I point out that you (we, since I am 27) are not yet old; if we are conscientious in our choices and stay mentally active, we may reasonably expect a minimum of 50 more years of fine function. Jumping right from nothing to a career is a pressure, but a false one. Indeed, the idea of a career is in the process of getting a kick in the teeth; the average person, I have read, changes jobs six times over their professional life. Further, the second most in-demand category of education is Liberal Arts degrees, on the strength of versatility and communication skills. According to a conversation I had with a former recruiter and current marketer for a profession-based non-profit, market research suggests that a diverse skill set will be the course of the future as whole industries rise and fall in the span of single 'careers'.

As far as tackling your set of personal problems are concerned, I have a couple of suggestions, which are vague because of my lack of authority to offer any prescription and lack of knowledge about all your details.

First, keep yourself gainfully occupied. If employment is not on offer, when you are not searching, find something else to do. Continuing to learn is huge - since you were going to be a professor, your ability to do so must be strong. Amplify something you understand only the basics of, or return to mathematics on your own - EdX, free courses online from Stanford, Khan Academy, a public library, it matters not. Furthermore, if you search Ronin Institute you may find the opportunity to contribute to scholarship outside of academia. The movement is young, however, so you can reasonably expect minimal support - but perhaps a larger impact.

Quick aside, perhaps securing a technical certification of some sort would be feasible. The training is usually short, the hours often flexible especially through a local community college, and employment is often guaranteed by perpetual shortage. It is also cheap, and financial aid may be available for the certification or someone with your general category of condition.

Have you considered something like volunteer work? It has been suggested several times elsewhere in the thread that you seek out support groups for people with your condition specifically or as a category. Perhaps if one is lacking, or you want a different focus, you could look into starting one. Given that other members of this forum have expressed the ability to empathize, and either are themselves or know someone who is suffering from similar problems, the people are there to help. I myself have experienced, and it has long been demonstrated, that helping others is a very effective motivator and mood adjuster.

To say that it will help your resume is somewhat misleading, for everything you do for free is unconditionally inferior to what you do for pay, but the flip side of the coin is any work you do no matter the circumstance is unconditionally superior to not doing any work at all.

Another point is on the networking front. This is, to my mind, a really poorly emphasized concept, because the articulation of it consists of having every person you ever met in your rollodex and then calling around begging for jobs. The implication is that if it is big enough, you'll get one. This is false, and as far as I know in professional circles considered awful form in the first place. Your network is only as good as your social connections, and that is the primary function of it. It simply has professional benefits, namely inside information. If you lack a network, then you shall grow one. It isn't any different from making friends, really, except you add the professional dimension to your decisions about whether to keep in touch with people or not. It's not much of a jump for me, so far - interesting person? Keep 'em. They do something interesting? Keep 'em, too. How many people do something interesting but are themselves totally boring? Win-win. Of course, I haven't worked mine for anything yet, so my attitude on the process may yet sour...[chuckles]

Nutrition and exertion: I read that medical professionals tend to over look this in cases where it isn't an obvious problem, but have you considered changing the way you eat or adjusting your physical activity to improve your lifestyle? Claims that running cures depression directly are demonstrated to be false, but I cannot recall reading anything that doesn't suggest a positive correlation between proper nutrition and physical fitness and mental health. Given that you are up against a suite of medications that make you drowsy, you might find adjustments for the purposes of boosting metabolism or avoiding lethargy beneficial. I have long experience with using exercise to promote wakefulness - perhaps a morning workout regimen would help. It could also provide you with an opportunity to observe measurable improvements in your performance. Interesting reading on both subjects can be found in Born to Run, and The China Study. It wouldn't resolve your condition, but it might help you feel better in every other arena, and thus make it easier to live with.

You might find the subject of Neuroplasticity interesting, which is to say the brain's propensity to develop new neural connections throughout your lifetime. There is a new book, which I have not read, about using the new concepts to reacquire lost brain function from trauma. I do not see why steady erosion from psychosis should be different. And NYT ran an article concerning using a memory game daily to improve your intelligence.

None of these things are guaranteed to help, but they might, and even if they don't, at least you are taking deliberate steps to improve yourself. That is no mean thing for anyone, condition or no.

The book: Neuroplasticity and Rehabilitation, by Sarah A. Raskin.

NYT articles: Search "can you make yourself smarter" and "how exercise could lead to a better brain" on Google. The articles should come up.

My brother has been diagnosed with a severe case of bipolar disorder. His life has been irretrievably destroyed by it, and needlessly. I say to you that you may be afflicted, but you are far from helpless.