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Evidence for Globalized Consciousness |
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| Jun20-12, 10:17 PM | #35 |
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Evidence for Globalized ConsciousnessEven in the case where there are "top-down" influences, couldn't that just be apparent stochasticity due to long-transients from previous "bottom up" stimuli? Again, no "internal model" seems to be needed. Example of long transients http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0603154 http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.3214 |
| Jun20-12, 10:54 PM | #36 |
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http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1184384-clinical |
| Jun20-12, 11:21 PM | #37 |
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See - http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...f-seizures.htm There is certainly a failure of normal activity. But it merely confirms the point that neurons exist within a network of excitatory and inhibitory influences. Disrupt that feedback-based balancing act and a part of the brain can generate vivid imagery - suppressed states can become expressed states. And the rest of the brain can try to integrate this chaotic activity into the general web of its activity. Consciousness is of course not preserve if the disruption becomes more generalised or hits areas key to organising the top-down orchestration of what should be coming bottom up. Remember that pixels are different because they will glow the same regardless of what happens around them, but will glow only if they have a driving input. Neurons do it the other way round. They are always spiking regardless of whether they have input (top-down or bottom-up). But they also always reflect what is happening around them in terms of firing rates, synchrony and as Pythagorean mentions, a whole host of sub-level processes as well. |
| Jun21-12, 12:21 AM | #38 |
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The thing to attack about my notion is not the claim the neuron isn't responding to input, but the unspoken assumption it's not generating output. It is, of course. The thalamus will get entrained into any cortical seizure. The thalamus could then communicate the experience to the frontal lobes where it becomes a conscious experience, if you're into the frontal lobes as the location of consciousness. |
| Jun21-12, 12:35 AM | #39 |
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Picture below is most like the comon crescent with geometric patterns inside, it is very bright and pulsing and the designs inside undulate. Not something you can ignore or is hard to see. Sounds like you might have had a minor visual disturbance. |
| Jun21-12, 01:19 AM | #40 |
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What was being stressed was the need to move away from a computational view of neuronal function - one where input produces output in some simplistic mechanical fashion. Instead, as Madness says, you have a neuronal network that is predicting its inputs and adapting its state in the light of prediction errors, pattern matches, or other sources of surprisal. So any individual neuron is already in a state of meaningful output - it is already contributing fully to the global state of the brain - before it responds to any input. So the spike train of a neuron is saying something before it changed its rate or timing, just as much as it is after the change. You could say that the neuron might go from saying something insignificant and ignored to something suddenly distinctive and attention-worthy. But that is confirming the importance of those contextual judgements - it is the larger brain that is saying there is a difference between the two. The neuron itself is just switching rates. What does it know about anything? |
| Jun21-12, 05:30 AM | #41 |
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To understand the sense in which the brain generates an internal model, read these: http://philosophyandpsychology.com/?p=1013 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_brain http://mrl.isr.uc.pt/pub/bscw.cgi/d2...illPouget2.pdf The final link is a peer reviewed article by one of the top guys in this subfield. |
| Jun21-12, 11:07 AM | #42 |
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| Jun21-12, 03:34 PM | #43 |
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| Jun21-12, 06:51 PM | #44 |
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| Jun22-12, 05:13 AM | #45 |
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| Jun22-12, 05:16 AM | #46 |
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The same would be true of any dedicated area of the cortex that is seizing or experiencing migraine hyperexitability. The sounds, smells, tactile sensations, tastes that happen during these episodes manifest something elemental about that area of cortex. The cortex isn't modeling the outside world during these episodes, obviously, but it also isn't just producing incoherent noise: it's demonstrating something about itself. The firing of visual neurons in the visual cortex, firing produced by any means whatever, produces a visual experience. Visual neurons fire-->visual experience. Olfactory neurons fire-->olefactory experience. Etc. During these paroxysmal episodes these neurons aren't listening to any top-down or bottom up input. The thalamus get entrained into the paroxysm and starts helping to sustain it. Whatever thing you experienced that you are citing as a migraine aura doesn't concur with what I've read and heard. I don't know what you experienced but the following is typical of the description I usually encounter: Evo's was the same. This is not an experience that has to be learned to be attended to to become conscious of it. Attention to it is automatic and involuntary: it's an extreme experience. It seems to me the Bayesian calculation is thrown into disarray during a paroxysm: both the reality and the model to compare it to become unavailable for the duration. Yet consciousness is preserved. |
| Jun23-12, 12:51 AM | #47 |
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I didn't mean that spontaneous activity is unpatterned. Fundamentally, if we assume classical physics as a sufficient basis for neural function, there is of course no such thing as spontaneous activity - it depends on a choice of coarse grained variables, such that experimental preparations that are identical at a coarse scale are different on a fine scale. Anyway, the coarse scale is convenient, and described by a probability model. In Knill and Pouget's proposal, the spontaneous activity I am thinking about is similar in spirit to the Poisson noise they mention - but their proposal is more specific. |
| Jun23-12, 04:01 AM | #48 |
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| Jun23-12, 06:04 AM | #49 |
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The noise in response to a stimulus is generally considered to be unpatterned, although it can covary with other variables. For population coding models such as Pouget's, the neurons respond with some stimulus-specific firing rate (the tuning curve of the neuron) plus some noise. For a large population the noise can actually increase the information content of the network in some cases. However, it wouldn't exactly be to correct that the stimulus variables are represented by spontaneous activity alone. |
| Jun23-12, 07:42 AM | #50 |
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Do you have any more recommendations for reading work of similar quality about spontaneous activity? Just glancing at Hesselmann's references, it looks like (4) and (5) are in the same spirit. |
| Jun23-12, 01:42 PM | #51 |
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There are some more by Hesselman (note that they claim their studies as evidence for predictive coding, which I mentioned earlier): http://www.unicog.org/publications/sadaghiani-fnsy.pdf http://www.jneurosci.org/content/28/53/14481.full http://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/42/13410.full The motion one is basically the same study as the Hesselman study you already read but based on motion coherence rather than the Rubin vase. |
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