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Inverting your Vision |
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| Jun14-12, 12:28 PM | #18 |
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Inverting your Visionhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17964252 which, as usual with the brain, shows it's quite complicated. This sentence: If you look at a map of touch sensation it's clear it's not a literal little human shaped homunculus as it's sometimes represented. Therefore, there is probably no absolute need for the maps of the visual field to be literally inverted to conform to the external world in order for us to be conscious of them the way we are. |
| Jun14-12, 12:44 PM | #19 |
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"Whether or not the signals are re-inverted could be determined, I would have thought, by the orientation of the visual field maps in the brain."
But you haven't explained what it would mean for the signals to be "re-inverted". Clearly, the physical orientation of the retinopic map on the cortex is unimportant - what matters is the pattern of wiring. In this sense, the only way it can be inverted or not is relative to other topographic maps like auditory and somatosensory. Therefore, your brain can't flip your vision relative to the world or to your retina. I also think you may have misunderstood the study you cite. The visual cortex is made up of orientation selective cells which form a striate patterned structure on the back of the brain. In general neighbouring cells have neighbouring orientation selectivity, but there are sometimes also pinwheels and fractures in the map where the orientation preference changes discontinously. I think this is what your quote is referring to. Edit: I'm actually not sure what that quote is referring to. Although what I wrote in the last paragraph is true, it might not be what they are talking about. However I'm pretty sure its talking about feature preferences within and not between maps. |
| Jun14-12, 02:07 PM | #20 |
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I googled and found there are cases of pathological inversion of vision:
Indeed, I recall reading that Van Gogh reported to his doctor that he had an incident preceding a seizure during which one half of his visual field suddenly became inverted. This suggests the brain does, indeed, automatically perform some inversion of the image that lands on the retina, and that they are reverted with respect to that image on the retina, a function that can be subtracted by disease. By "the brain" I could be referring to anything in and of the brain. Something is acting like a lens, a lens that can fail. |
| Jun14-12, 02:16 PM | #21 |
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| Jun14-12, 02:24 PM | #22 |
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From your paper on inversion
It is also proposed a [sic] disfunction of the multisensory parieto-insular vestibular cortex, or its afferences, or of its association cortical areas [21,35], or a disorder of visiospatial integration [25,29,42]. I believe this supports my argument. (Note vestibular = balance). |
| Jun14-12, 02:59 PM | #23 |
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"The retina, like the cochlea, is mapped systematically on the cerebral cortex, and damage to it (or edema beneath it) can cause strange distortions of vision, sometimes a warping of horizontal and vertical lines, as if one is looking through a fish eye lens. These distortions may be very noticeable if one glances at individual objects: a rectangular picture frame may appear both curved and trapezoidal, or a cup or saucer bizarrely deformed." Musicophilia, p.145n The question in all this is how we are conscious of any given perception. Does consciousness of what image is falling on your retina take place at the cortical retinal map? No one knows. At any rate, we can, by pathological mechanisms, become conscious of a visual field that is inverted, or otherwise grossly distorted, with respect to what we're used to. |
| Jun14-12, 03:19 PM | #24 |
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"The question in all this is how we are conscious of any given perception. Does consciousness of what image is falling on your retina take place at the cortical retinal map? No one knows."
The evidence is that early topographic maps are not sufficient for consciousness. The topographic organisation of other regions becomes harder and harder to establish towards the frontal cortex. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17395576 Empirical evidence to date suggests that no single brain area is both necessary and sufficient for consciousness. Instead, necessary and sufficient conditions appear to involve both activation of a distributed representation of the visual scene in primary visual cortex and ventral visual areas, plus parietal and frontal activity. |
| Jun14-12, 03:37 PM | #25 |
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| Jun14-12, 04:03 PM | #26 |
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Electrical stimulation of the parietal cortex (which is further down the processing stream than the primary visual cortex) causes the experience of phosphenes. This seems to be evidence that conscious experience does not take place in the topographic map of the primary visual cortex.
I believe that consciousness arises from the integrated activity of various brain structures. This integration can be achieved through thalamocortical loops, phase synchronisation between brain structures etc. In fact the only fundamental scientific theory of consciousness that is genuinely considered at the moment is based on this kind of integration (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/5/42/). |
| Jun16-12, 08:38 AM | #27 |
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The reason I suggested that was in reaction to Sacks report about physical distortion of the cortex (as by a hematoma) causing a corresponding distortion of the perceived image. It was an incidental remark and I didn't intend to get off the subject of image inversion with it. The point of my post was: "At any rate, we can, by pathological mechanisms, become conscious of a visual field that is inverted, or otherwise grossly distorted, with respect to what we're used to." Your point, that no one has explained what it might mean for the image to be inverted, is a good one. I can't explain what it would mean, here, nor pinpoint a necessity for it. All I can offer is the fact it does seem to undergo an inversion, an inversion that can be subtracted by pathological means. |
| Jun16-12, 10:00 AM | #28 |
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I might be missing something but I thought the point of the research was whether this inversion mapping if it exists could be remapped in short order (days) by the brain.
The real experiment (like learning a language accent-free) is whether the brain makes this mapping in a young state and freezes it or loses the capability to change it later. Which makes a lot of sense to me. Massive ethical problems aside, someone needs to put the inverting glasses on some toddlers and infants and see what happens. |
| Jun16-12, 05:03 PM | #29 |
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| Jun16-12, 06:25 PM | #30 |
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My point is that the image is inverted with respect to other internal maps rather than the external world. We have retinotopic and spatiotopic maps; vestibular, somatosensory and auditory cues etc. We seem to build up several internal representations of space which are integrated in a way which we do not understand. It seems to me that any pathological mechanisms causing an inverted or distorted sense of vision are due to the interaction between these various representations of space rather than due to the relationship between the internal representation and the external world. |
| Jun16-12, 07:05 PM | #31 |
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The rotation is probably a normal function, a stabilizing correction that is always at work so that, for example, the world doesn't seem to be rocking back and forth when we walk, or appear to be tilted with slight, and even not so slight tilts of the head. Indeed, when you're lying on your side looking at the room there's no vertiginous sense the room is sideways. Up and Down seem pretty normal even though you, yourself, are sideways. In these cases of vision inversion by disease this stabilizing effect is probably erroneously hyperactivated, rather than something being subtracted as I first supposed. Otherwise the man with the rotation problem would have seen a mirror flip in the image as well. |
| Jun16-12, 10:55 PM | #32 |
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You can close your eyes and touch your left shoulder with your right hand: Left and right wrt you are an objective reality. If your vision is mirrored, you would see your left hand going to your right shoulder, but that won't be what you feel. |
| Jun17-12, 02:24 AM | #33 |
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http://www.neurologia.com/pdf/Web/4403/x030157en.pdf I'm interested in the included cases where this image inversion is associated with seizures. Before this Van Gogh was the only case I'd heard of where seizures caused this. I happened to notice also that inverted images are listed as rare manifestations of migraine aura, which, as you're probably aware, can cause all kinds of visual integration problems. http://www.severe-headache-expert.co...-migraine.html |
| Jul15-12, 11:05 PM | #34 |
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hia,
try this, place your finger on the side of your nose, next to your eye. Very lightly (dont slip and poke ya sen in the eye, because then we cant do the experiment, lol, :-) ) press on the inside of your eye. Notice a black spot appears on the outside of your vision! Because the image is inverted, what appears to be a sensation on the outside of your eye is actually a sensation on the inside! Not convinced eh, well try this, Go into a dark room with a friend, and have him or her look at a small light-emitting object, like a candle. If the room is dark enough, you will be able to see up to three images in his or her pupil. The first image (upright and brighter than the other images) is a reflection off the cornea. The second image (upright and very dim) is a reflection off the eye lens. The third image (dim and inverted) is a reflection off the retina. This third image is the image that is sent to the brain! |
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