P: 148 There was an old thread but for some reason it is now closed... So I'd have to restate this question: Why does any text book doesn't bother to derive the 3-vector-velocities addition formula using the more general 4-vector formalism? In detail, the Lorentz Transformation: U$^{1'}$=γ(v)(U$^{1}$-β(v)U$^{0}$)⇔γ(υ$^{'}_{x}$)υ$^{'}_{x}$=γ(v)[γ(υ$_{x}$)(υ$_{x}$-cβ(v))] (where υ$_{x}$ the velocity in Σ,υ$^{'}_{x}$ the velocity mesured in Σ', and v the relative velocity between the two systems) solved for υ$^{'}_{x}$ should grant υ$^{'}_{x}$=(υ$_{x}$-v)/(1-vυ$_{x}$/c$^{2}$) right?
P: 1,911
 Quote by Trifis There was an old thread but for some reason it is now closed... So I'd have to restate this question: Why does any text book doesn't bother to derive the 3-vector-velocities addition formula using the more general 4-vector formalism? In detail, the Lorentz Transformation: U$^{1'}$=γ(v)(U$^{1}$-β(v)U$^{0}$)⇔γ(υ$^{'}_{x}$)υ$^{'}_{x}$=γ(v)[γ(υ$_{x}$)(υ$_{x}$-cβ(v))] (where υ$_{x}$ the velocity in Σ,υ$^{'}_{x}$ the velocity mesured in Σ', and v the relative velocity between the two systems) solved for υ$^{'}_{x}$ should grant υ$^{'}_{x}$=(υ$_{x}$-v)/(1-vυ$_{x}$/c$^{2}$) right?
You're exactly right: If you know about the 4-velocity (or equivalently, the Energy-Momentum 4-vector), then you can derive the transformation law for velocities very easily.

However, you can also do it the other way around: You derive the transformation law for velocities using the Lorentz transformations, and then you derive the relativistic form for momentum from that.
PF Gold
P: 2,226
 Quote by stevendaryl However, you can also do it the other way around: You derive the transformation law for velocities using the Lorentz transformations, and then you derive the relativistic form for momentum from that.
I wouldn't say this is correct, as you'd have to make assumptions about relativistic momentum in order to do this.

P: 1,911

 Quote by jcsd I wouldn't say this is correct, as you'd have to make assumptions about relativistic momentum in order to do this.
Sure, you need to make assumptions, such as reducing to the Newtonian case as v/c --> 0, and being proportional to mass, and being in the same direction as the velocity, and so forth.
 P: 148 At first glance the derivation seems straightforward but when put into practice I have some issues with the algebra: $\frac{u'}{\sqrt{1-(u'/c)^{2}}}$=$\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^{2}}}$$\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(u/c)^{2}}}$(u-$\frac{v}{c}$) The above solved for u' would never yield the velocity-addition formula What am I missing?
PF Gold
P: 5,027
 Quote by Trifis At first glance the derivation seems straightforward but when put into practice I have some issues with the algebra: $\frac{u'}{\sqrt{1-(u'/c)^{2}}}$=$\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^{2}}}$$\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(u/c)^{2}}}$(u-$\frac{v}{c}$) The above solved for u' would never yield the velocity-addition formula What am I missing?
Your last expression on the right should be simply (u-v). Then the algebra should (laboriously) work out - the rest of your derivation looks correct to me.

[Edit: just worked it through - with the one correction, all the algebra does work out. This is your only mistake.]
HW Helper
Thanks ∞
PF Gold
P: 5,043
 Quote by PAllen Your last expression on the right should be simply (u-v). Then the algebra should (laboriously) work out - the rest of your derivation looks correct to me. [Edit: just worked it through - with the one correction, all the algebra does work out. This is your only mistake.]
PAllen is correct. Now, write down the corresponding relationship for the time direction, and divide your x-direction equation by your t-direction equation. What do you get then?

Chet
PF Gold
P: 5,027
 Quote by Chestermiller PAllen is correct. Now, write down the corresponding relationship for the time direction, and divide your x-direction equation by your t-direction equation. What do you get then? Chet
Actually, this isn't necessary. Make the one fix to the equation in post #5, and the velocity addition formula follows by pure (messy) algebra. Easiest is just to plug in:

u' = (u-v)/(1-uv/c^2)

into the equation and see that it is a solution. To be complete, you then need to provide arguments that it is the only solution.
 P: 148 Thanks! I see it now. cβ(v) is of course v and not v/c... Working SR in 3D problems has always had some troublesome algebra though...
HW Helper
Thanks ∞
PF Gold
P: 5,043
 Quote by PAllen Actually, this isn't necessary. Make the one fix to the equation in post #5, and the velocity addition formula follows by pure (messy) algebra. Easiest is just to plug in: u' = (u-v)/(1-uv/c^2) into the equation and see that it is a solution. To be complete, you then need to provide arguments that it is the only solution.
There is absolutely no "messy" algebra in what I suggested. The velocity addition formula for the x-direction follows directly and immediately when you do as I suggested. You can also get the velocity addition formulas for the y- and z-directions directly by dividing the relationships in these directions by the relationship for the time direction. You can then substitute these results into the equation for the time direction to confirm that the solution satisfies the time equation identically.

Chet