Photon energy in an expanding Universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of photon energy in the context of an expanding Universe, particularly focusing on the implications of redshift and energy conservation. Participants explore the relationship between photon energy, frequency, and wavelength as the Universe expands, raising questions about where the energy of individual photons goes during this process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that as the Universe expands, the temperature decreases, leading to the cooling of the microwave background radiation.
  • It is proposed that the energy of a photon, defined by E=hf, decreases due to an increase in wavelength caused by the expansion of spacetime, which reduces its frequency.
  • One participant questions where the energy of the photon goes as it redshifts, suggesting that the overall amount of energy decreases without the creation of new photons.
  • Another participant mentions a concept that the momentum and energy of photons decay into wavelength and wavetime, seeking a simpler explanation for this phenomenon.
  • A later reply attempts to clarify that the redshift is a result of the expanding metric of spacetime and does not imply that the photon itself does anything to spacetime.
  • One participant draws an analogy with a rubber band to illustrate how energy can appear to change without actually being lost, suggesting a parallel to the behavior of photons in an expanding Universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the fate of photon energy during redshift, with no consensus reached on the mechanisms involved or the implications for energy conservation in the context of the expanding Universe.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about energy conservation and the nature of spacetime, which remain unresolved. The complexity of the topic may pose challenges for non-physicists in grasping the underlying physics.

Adrian Baker
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We are told that as the Universe expands, the 'temp' of it cools and we now have the microwave background radiation as a remnant. Fine.


Considering the energy density of the universe, energy is indeed conserved as it expands and cools.

However, what about an individual photon, who's energy is given by E=hf. Its wavelength has increased due to the expansion of spacetime, reducing its frequency, and hence its energy.


Where did its energy go?
 
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Start with an 'easy' problem - what happens to a photon's energy in a 'normal' redshift situation?
 
Hmmm...not exactly sure. Give me a while to think about it...
 
The energy density is decreasing to keep the total energy constant. So the frequency redshifts
 
..but without creating new photons, the OVERALL amount of energy decreases. So somehow energy is lost to other systems. Which sort of brings me back to where I started... Where did it go?
 
One more time, in two-part harmony,
Originally posted by Nereid
Start with an 'easy' problem - what happens to a photon's energy in a 'normal' redshift situation?
 
I read somewhere on the web that:

The momentum and energy slowly decay into, respectively, wavelength (along the photon path in intergalactic space) and wavetime (the same time dimension as it travels through the immense universe).

Is there a simpler way of putting this (ie one I can understand!), or is it just a too difficult a topic for a non-physicist to grasp?
 
To put quite simply here is what happens.

As spacetime expands, it creates what is called a redshift. This essentially means that the amount of space a given photon is traveling through increases as it is traveling. The effect of this is to increase the wavelength, and hence decrease the frequency and subsequently, the photon's energy. But now, you ask where did the energy go? A valid question, after all, it has to go somewhere. Well, the answer is that the energy doesn't really go anywhere in a way we can define energy. See, this redshift is simply caused by the metric increasing (the way we measure distance roughly) and nothing at all to do with the photon. In other words, the photon does not do anything to spacetime. That is a bit off, but perhaps someone else can better explain it.
 
Originally posted by Adrian Baker
We are told that as the Universe expands, the 'temp' of it cools and we now have the microwave background radiation as a remnant. Fine.


Considering the energy density of the universe, energy is indeed conserved as it expands and cools.

However, what about an individual photon, who's energy is given by E=hf. Its wavelength has increased due to the expansion of spacetime, reducing its frequency, and hence its energy.


Where did its energy go?

just another problem with the big bang theory.
but as far as redshifts are concerned think about a rubber band.
Let's say I snap you with a rubber band- it hurts right? So,
you get smarter the next time and you pull your hand away as
I try to snap you with the same rubber band again. I snap it exactly
the same way (with the same energy) but this time it will hurt less
because you pulled away. The energy of the rubber band snap didn't go anywhere, it just appears to have struck you with less energy
because your hand moved in the same direction as the rubber band.
 
  • #10
Thanks for the replies guys... I'd puzzled over this for a long time, and although I still find the answer a little unclear (Physics wise, not explanation wise) at least I know I wasn't missing something simple!
 

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