how antennas receive AM radio signals

davenn

Hi Don
yeah costs for leasing space on towers and hi-rise buildings, here in Australia are very expensive. On a roof top, you usually pay by the sqr metre and you are limited to height of antenna etc. On a mast you pay, not only for the area but also position on the mast, eg. the higher up the higher the lease cost. And considering the ongoing need for more equip to be located on a finite number of tower sites, its really a licence for the owners to "print money" haha

Dave

davenn

OK, I had to look up ornithopter just to confirm we were both on the same page haha
There are many good radio control systems out there. All the best ones these days use 2.4 GHz and are digitally encoded to avoid multi system intereference. Any respectable model hobby shop will be able to guide you into something suitable. As for range, well out to around 1km would be an approximate maximum.
yes, of course you will need an antenna, and again the systems for sale come with an antenna suitable for the unit you are remote controlling :)

cheers
Dave

webberfolds

Actually I meant that I want to aim towards learning about that, any attempt to help me will be appreciated but it would help me most to know about how I can make the radio control. Learning about antennas is very good.

webberfolds

I'm sort of a perfectionist and I want to make a simple but very effective remote control system that's specifically designed for the ornithopter. I have other reasons for wanting to know about it but I am very interested in radio control.

davenn

No one makes radio control systems themselves, everyone just buys the receiver modules and controllers. The electronics is much too complex for the average hobbiest to get into.
its a big enough job just buying the controllers and installing the module and servos into your model.

Dave

davenn

read my last post that I was typing and posting as you posted this

Dave

webberfolds

Maybe there's a simple and effective way, I don't mind if the controller is crude but I have difficulty being satisfied with a good radio system. I don't think of myself as much of a hobbiest (although I do do origami) but more of a want-to-be pioneer. I don't want to waste your time. What can I do to help and I don't want to feel like I'm taking advantage.

davenn

and what electronics design and construction skills do you have ?

D

webberfolds

Hardly any, but I can learn, I haven't been studying for very long. I know it may seem foolish but I sort of want it to be done right and if I want it done right I may have to do it in a way that satisfies me.

davenn

then building isnt an option for you, you are not going to learn in 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 months the skills needed to do this sort of complex work.
sorry if that sounds harsh, its a reality you need to understand.
So often on forums like this we have people coming on wanting to build something and they have none to little electronics abilities, they think its just a simple thing of soldering a few wires and components to a circuit board and presto a project... it just doesnt work that way

Your only choice is to buy a ready working system and do the mechanical work needed to control the unit. that alone will have you doing lots of head scratching :)

If you have a genuine desire to learn electronics, thats awesome, there are plenty of good book for teaching theory and have practical guides. But learn to crawl before you try to walk or run.
I dont know what country you are in, maybe there are electronics hobby stores like jaycar, radio shack etc etc that you can buy kitsets to build up and start to learn the basics. learn how to solder, how to use a multimeter, how to fault find in the kit you build but doesnt work.
As I said its not something you are gonna learn in any short term period of time.
I have been playing with electronics since I was ~ 8 years old and am now well over 50 yrs old, and I will be the first to admit that I dont know it all. There are many days I go to work and come across different faults in equip I have to repair that really test my abilities.

cheers
Dave

webberfolds

I am not planning on building it for a long time and I do have a genuine interest in it. I would like to know if AM or FM is better for this and what sort of antenna is best for this. I do consider myself a dreamer and I need to think about reality too, I agree.

davenn

OK then enrole in a local technical institute and do a diploma or similar in electronics :)
You will learn a good amount from books etc but nothing beats actual classroom interaction with other students and lecturer

D

webberfolds

I edited some of my other posts, there's some questions on them. What can I do in return for helping me in the previous posts?I have serious anxiety around people but that's another story. I got to go to bed now, good night!

davenn

You are never wasting my time as long as you are willing to learn :)
When I was much younger in both age and electronics experience, long before the internet was even dreamed of, I got to know a couple of good electronics technicians really well.
one was my electronics tutor at the tech college, a chinese guy with great patience and could tell things in an understandable way. The other guy was a radio technician for a large government department, I spend many saturday mornings at his place and some times his working day workshop. Not only did he fill in holes in my general electronics knowledge, he also taught me a lot about RF (radio) electronics as it was his field of expertise.

Having mentors is a wonderful thing and something I suggest you see if you can find local to where you live. Someone that you can take non-working projects to and ask for help and let them guide you through the steps of fault dinding etc.
A good mentor wont just sit there and hand you all the answers on a silver platter, as so many expect these days, but will give you hints and tips of things for you to try so you can with a little help work out the problem pretty much on your own.

Thats what we try and do on these forums when people come asking questions
we want to know you have at least done a little research on your own. Google is a wonderful thing, probably 90% of questions asked on these forums could have been answered if the questioner had just posted their question into google.
Where we can help is when the person has done that on google, but there is something in the answer they dont understand, then at least then they can come here and a good specific question :)

Its all part of the fun of learning

cheers
Dave

webberfolds

I have tried google for these questions but I often find FAQ that don't help me much, or answers in unclear or confusing english. I get questions like why the sky is blue and I already know some basic reasons for that. Part of me wants to accept good enough and part of me doesn't, I know I have a lot to learn about accepting good enough. I want to feel like I'm working on the project the right way but my thinking process has to evolve so I can finish it. I try to think of easy ways to get AM radio control on my own but it would only work if electricity acted a certain way and it likely doesn't. If know a any good books or similar stuff about how radio signals are picked up by an antenna or how how electrical current moves the wires I'd love to know. anyway thanks for all the help! If want I can send origami as gift for helping me or something because I feel like I'm taking too much. I have one question sadly, why do the antennas have to be VP or HP? In space there's no up or down in a way. The main reason I started writing about the ornithopter was not because I wasn't interested in the antenna info but because I felt that I had to get down to the most needed info for me because I didn't want to be annoying and I didn't want to take too much of your time. If helping me with this was a paid job then it would be different. That's what it comes down to, it's not as if learning much from me.

LegendLength

Personally I would recommend building the aircraft first using off the shelf components. During that process you'll come to understand the internals of the radio transmitter, receiver, control boards etc..

You will find there are areas that are very, very complex and really require a PHD to understand well. A prime example is aerial design. Sure, you can build an antenna yourself and it will work ok. But if you want to do any kind of optimization or increase the signal strength you quickly run into a lot of complexity.

I have actually studied ornithopters in the past and can tell you it's all possible with parts ordered over the internet. Everything is basically the same as an RC plane except for a small control board that makes the wings (servos) flap.

If you try to continue down the path you're on (building every component yourself) you'll be blindly fumbling through. If you build a simple ornithopter first using standard components then it will help you see what the real issues are and you can then focus specifically on those, and then build your own stuff to solve those issues.

I would start with programming an existing control board (for wing flapping). That will surely keep you busy for a good 6 months.

Finally I would recommend posting in some of the RC forums if you are after specific information such as range or real-world issues.

webberfolds

It does seem like a good idea but I don't want to pay a lot money for it, I heard shipping costed over $100 for one and it wasn't even that big, too much! The thing is, are there so many components inside it that I can learn from? Often there's only two wings that go up and down when flying (actually maybe my partly-designed ornithopter should not be called one because it has atleast 4 wings and birds almost always have 2 wings.) If there's only 2 basic wing movements (up and down) how complicated can the RC system be? I want to learn a lot from it and I don't want to waste money expecially and time. Thanks for the help! (Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I left my computer somewhere.) Why does it take atleast 6 months? I'm having trouble finding the right ornithopter though.