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No election under occupation ...

by Bilal
Tags: election, occupation
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misskitty
#19
Mar11-05, 01:53 PM
P: 1,105
After we finish helping them get back on their feet and everyone returns home, Iraq will be a soverign nation.

I'm curious to see what kind of political parties will form after we leave. I wonder if they will form as many different parties as Palestine has. I'm also curious to see how their constitution is written and how many times it will be amended. How long do you think it will take the new government to write their constitution?
Bilal
#20
Mar11-05, 02:03 PM
P: 407
Quote Quote by russ_watters
-Regarding the PLO being secular. I've heard it before and its hard to accept considering the entire conflict in the region is based on religion. I do recognize though that their primary concern is with Palestinian statehood. .
The conflict is not religious!!!
Zionism is secular nationalist Jews organization …. They started their activities by non religious Jews; later the religious Jews joined them. Even many religious Jews ,e.g Naturi Karata, are against creation of Israel before the last coming of the Jews Masseih , who will rebuild their temple and destroy all the enemies of Israel in Armageddon as mentioned in their bible.
Palestinian (20% - 30% christain) was not religious nation till the late 80s … PLO and other organization are well known as extreme secular, a and many of their leaders are Christian Palestinian , e.g. George Habash, Naief Hawatmeh, nabil Abu Radina …). The most two radical Palestinian groups 60s and 70s are established by Christian Palestinian .

Religion became important only after 11/9 because the alliance of Israel want to take advantage of the ‘’war on terrorism’’.

Quote Quote by russ_watters
-Regarding the PLO vs Hamas: sorry, its Fatah. My mistake. The point is the same: the PA is the political arm of a terrorist organization, ie. Sinn Fein and the IRA. ".
PLO: Council of secular Palestinian organizations. (all Palestinian organizations except Hamas and Islamic Jihad)

Fatah : The oldest and the larger Palestinian organization. It is not classified as terrorist by any country (even not by USA or Israel!)!!! it is recognized by UN since 1974 and they have permanent seat. It is secular organization who want to create democratic secular State for Muslims, Jews, Christian and non religious in Palestine. For this reason they have much support among Christian and secular Muslims.

PA: Palestinian authority, it is the temporary Palestinian government. It is chosen by free election and recognized by most of world countries including USA and Israel.

Military wing of Fatah which is put on the list of terrorism is called ‘’Al qsa martyrs”. It is established in 2000 to response on the Israeli attacks.

Quote Quote by russ_watters
- Iraq is not a sovereign nation: they just lost a war in which their government was dismantled and they are currently under occupation. Once their new government is established, they will become a sovereign nation again. That's why they call it "transitional".
Lebanon also lost its government in 1976. Their government has no real power and appointed by occupation forces: Israel in 1982 and Syria in 1990.It is transitional government for permanent constitution.
russ_watters
#21
Mar11-05, 02:19 PM
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Quote Quote by Bilal
Lebanon also lost its government in 1976. Their government has no real power and appointed by occupation forces: Israel in 1982 and Syria in 1990.It is transitional government for permanent constitution.
Its been "transitional" for 15 years? You are seriously trying to say thats the same thing as the current situation in Iraq?

Btw, didn't Syria agree to pull out a decade ago and then never left?
misskitty
#22
Mar11-05, 02:24 PM
P: 1,105
It's a similar situation, but's definitely not the same thing. The circumstances are different.
Bilal
#23
Mar11-05, 02:26 PM
P: 407
I agree that Syria should leave ... but I do not see any logic for Bush who occupying Iraq to ask Syria to withdraw for doing election!!!

Quote Quote by russ_watters
Its been "transitional" for 15 years? You are seriously trying to say thats the same thing as the current situation in Iraq?

Btw, didn't Syria agree to pull out a decade ago and then never left?
klusener
#24
Mar11-05, 02:28 PM
P: 212
I agree that Syria must withdraw from Lebanon, and Syrian people should transform to democracy peacefully.. But why Bush did not ask Israel to withdraw from The Syrian occupied land and letting 500000 Syrian refugees to return back?

By the way, Israel decaled that Syrian Golan Heights became permanent part of Israeli land in 1980, and the Syrian refugees lost their rights to get their houses or land!!! They use this time ''securing water resources and startigic location'' as excuse to steal the land of Syrian people.
hey, buddies don't ask buddies to leave.. It's only when something is against your interests that you use moral reasons as a facade to serve your objective, as long as it is your friend that's doing it, your eyes are blind..
misskitty
#25
Mar11-05, 02:35 PM
P: 1,105
Quote Quote by Bilal
I agree that Syria should leave ... but I do not see any logic for Bush who occupying Iraq to ask Syria to withdraw for doing election!!!
It is out of place for Bush to request Syria leave Lebanon when we are still occupying Iraq. He might just be trying to lessen the tension in that area.
russ_watters
#26
Mar11-05, 03:46 PM
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P: 22,303
Quote Quote by Bilal
I agree that Syria should leave ... but I do not see any logic for Bush who occupying Iraq to ask Syria to withdraw for doing election!!!
A number of points have been made already that you haven't really responded to. For example:

-Lebanon is supposedly sovereign, Iraq is not.
-Iraq's government is transitional, Lebanon's is not.
-Iraq's government is new, Lebanon's is not.
-The US has a democratic tradition, Syria does not.
-The US has a responsibility to build a government in Iraq, Syria has no such responsibility with Lebanon.

It seems pretty self-evident to me that the two situations are utterly different.
kat
#27
Mar11-05, 07:22 PM
kat's Avatar
P: 58
You all seem to forget that the transitional government in Iraq has asked the United States to stay...in Lebanon, they've already made an agreement for syria to leave...a decade ago.
Syria is very sly..no way will they just leave. They will play the same game they have been since the beginning. Syria still pursues a re-united of greater syria.
SOS2008
#28
Mar11-05, 07:45 PM
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Quote Quote by kat
Lol, I just can't believe Bush...doesn't he realize that just because Syria is not a democratic nation, run by a tyrant and is a country that has no history of bringing other countries to democracy that they are still perfectly suited to oversee another countries democratic elections! Shocking! How dense can he be?!
The old philosophy of "sphere of influence" seems to be okay with the U.S. in regard to China, et al, in dealing with N. Korea. But apparently this does not apply in the event of elections--Syria has no right to be involved with countries around it's borders. And who's to say how fair the elections were in Iraq with the U.S. there as a foreign occupier? I'm sure the U.S. hasn't tried to guide Iraq away from being an Islamic republic, and most of all trying to ensure they are pro-American? And let's face it, only the U.S. can play a peace-keeping role, etc., because the U.S. is the "good guy." That's right, Bush wears a white hat, didn't you know?
Bilal
#29
Mar12-05, 07:48 AM
P: 407
In fact the elected Lebanese government with majority of the Parliament asks Syria to stay!!!


Quote Quote by kat
You all seem to forget that the transitional government in Iraq has asked the United States to stay...in Lebanon, they've already made an agreement for syria to leave...a decade ago.
Syria is very sly..no way will they just leave. They will play the same game they have been since the beginning. Syria still pursues a re-united of greater syria.
kat
#30
Mar12-05, 09:17 AM
kat's Avatar
P: 58
Bilal, both the Lebanese government adn the united nations have passed rulings and requested and Syria has agreed to remove their troops from lebanon. If you know of any ruling that states otherwise I'd appreciate the link but since my husband is first generation Lebanese with most of my inlaws living in Lebanon I feel pretty secure in making that statement.
Bilal
#31
Mar12-05, 09:43 AM
P: 407
I know that the agreement asked for withdraw of Syrian army after the situation become stable and establish ''real democracy'' , end of Israeli occupation and cancellation of differences between different religious communities. Beside that, the agreement asked both governments (Syria and Lebanon) to arrange the withdraw by another agreements among their governments..

Syria could not withdraw because Israel rejected to withdraw till 2000 .. Also they still have conflict on water of South Lebanon and Sheba farms.

Syria reduced their forces since 2000 from 40000 to 14000, and they promise to withdraw after establishing strong Lebanese army to avoid any security gap.

The question: Israel sings Oslo agreement , according to this agreement Israel should withdraw within 5 years (in 1998), but we observed that Israel increased the settlements by 200% within this period and stole 60% of Lands and 85% of water resources, so why Bush can not tell Israel also to withdraw?

I support the withdrawal of Syria, but I do not like such double standard...

By the way, I did not expect that you are female!! I shocked several times by your extreme views against the Arab and Muslims!!

Always I think man with “Rambo mentality” behind the keyboard of your PC .
Quote Quote by kat
Bilal, both the Lebanese government adn the united nations have passed rulings and requested and Syria has agreed to remove their troops from lebanon. If you know of any ruling that states otherwise I'd appreciate the link but since my husband is first generation Lebanese with most of my inlaws living in Lebanon I feel pretty secure in making that statement.
kat
#32
Mar12-05, 10:57 AM
kat's Avatar
P: 58
[QUOTE=Bilal]
The question: Israel sings Oslo agreement , according to this agreement Israel should withdraw within 5 years (in 1998), but we observed that Israel increased the settlements by 200% within this period and stole 60% of Lands and 85% of water resources, so why Bush can not tell Israel also to withdraw?[/QOUTE] This is not accurate and very misleading. Why don't you try again?

[QUOTE]I support the withdrawal of Syria, but I do not like such double standard... [/QOUTE] Lebanon and it's occupation by syria is a much different matter the Israel in Palestine. I won';t even get into Syria's responsibility for the origional problems in Lebanon, Syria using Lebanon as a launching pad for attacks against Israel is not a good excuse for Syria to continue occupy Lebanon. I know how sneaky Syria is. If you are familiar with the area, then you should as well.

By the way, I did not expect that you are female!! I shocked several times by your extreme views against the Arab and Muslims!!

Always I think man with “Rambo mentality” behind the keyboard of your PC .
I'm not against Arab or muslims, I am against tyrants and the destruction of moderates in the Arab society. I am against the opppression of women, I am against a society that romanticizes young men and women strapping bombs upon themselves and destroying their own precious lives as well as those of other innocents. I am against the destruction of Lebanon. I am against how the Arab world has used the Palestinian people and how men like arafat have used the palastinian people. I am against your twisting of facts and misleading statements. If being against those things and correcting your propoganda is a "Rambo metality" then we need more Rambo's on this forum.
klusener
#33
Mar12-05, 11:15 AM
P: 212
Can you please post links to show that Bilal's post is not accurate?

I am against a government that invades a country under the name of democratic ideals without the civilians in mind. Russ agrees that this is done without the civilians in mind and for your country's own interests, which is exactly what he posted under the other thread.

So you agree that the reasons that are used as a pretense for the usage of the force are self-serving?
Of course!! Countries act primarily based on their own self(ish) interests. That is neither unusual, nor is it wrong.
Bilal
#34
Mar12-05, 11:36 AM
P: 407
Quote Quote by kat
I'm not against Arab or muslims, I am against tyrants and the destruction of moderates in the Arab society. I am against the opppression of women, I am against a society that romanticizes young men and women strapping bombs upon themselves and destroying their own precious lives as well as those of other innocents. .
- Women in Turkey, Palestine, Lebanon, Tunisia, Syria ... and many other Muslims countries have good situation.. The rest of the countries are in process to improve the situation of the women.

Currently in Palestine, we have 60% of graduate students are female!!

Women suffered also in most of third world countries and in some East European countries.. We can not change the situation within one month.

Education among Palestinian women before 40 years was less than 3%, but currently it is more than 90% and the graduate female students are more than male-students especially in Engineering and medical sciences. In all political parties we have female activists including the Islamic parties.

Here are stories of some female suicide bombers:

* Ayat Akhras, 18 years old , member on Fatah (secular party) , she revenged for her fiancé whom killed in cold blood before one week of their marriage ...
* Hanadi Jaradat; Lawyer, 29 years old, The Israeli murdered her cousin and brother inside her room...

If you care about women rights, why you do not care about suffering of Palestinian women under occupation?

Quote Quote by kat
I am against the destruction of Lebanon.
It was dirty game and many countries involved in it , starting from USA in 1958, France, Israel , Syria, PLO ....We all against that bloody war!!

Quote Quote by kat
I am against how the Arab world has used the Palestinian people and how
men like arafat have used the palastinian people. .
- Do you believe that Palestinian have rights to defend their country? If you were Palestinian, will you accept to create (Jews State) in your homeland? Why you think the rest of Arab nations have no right to scare from creation of Israel? Israel considered Golan Syrian heights as part from their land forever in 1980? This means they can occupy Damascus and Amman and considers them as Israeli land? So the Arab nations have enough reasons to scare from the Racist Zionism project in ME, which will not stop on the border of Palestine.

Quote Quote by kat
I am against your twisting of facts and misleading statements. .
- Please show me where I mentioned wrong statements!!! I will be thankful if you show me that!!!

Quote Quote by kat
If being against those things and correcting your propoganda is a "Rambo metality" then we need more Rambo's on this forum.
- I considers my statement about " Rambo" as joke, I expected you will accept , but it seems you so serious .. I apologize if I injured your feelings.
Bilal
#35
Mar12-05, 12:00 PM
P: 407
Quote Quote by kat
[/QOUTE] Lebanon and it's occupation by syria is a much different matter the Israel in Palestine. I won';t even get into Syria's responsibility for the origional problems in Lebanon, Syria using Lebanon as a launching pad for attacks against Israel is not a good excuse for Syria to continue occupy Lebanon. I know how sneaky Syria is. If you are familiar with the area, then you should as well..
This is the sequence of Lebanese war

- 1860: Conflict between Duruz and Maronite in the mountain of Lebanon … due to that; France, Russia , Britain sent their forces . France supported Maronite, Russia supported Roman Orthodox and Britain supported Duruz …

- 1945 France decided to withdraw from Syria, but they decided also to create ‘’Lebanon’’ … they added to the Mountain of Lebanon (majority Maronite) , the South (Shia) and the north , Tripoli (Sunni). Lebanon became more looks like State with 55% Christian, most of them Maronite.

- In 1958, Lebanese left parties arranged demonstrations against the government (Kamil Shimon). These demonstrations arranged by the Duruz well known leader (Kamal Jumblat). Kamil Shimon asked USA to stop these demonstrations, so the Marines attacked the protesters and murdered hundreds of people.

- In 50s Armenian Christian and Palestinian refugees Christian (Mar Elias camp) got Lebanese nationalities for demographic reasons.


- In 1975 after tension between right wing Maronite groups from one side and Left groups with Palestinian organization from other side, the civil war started.

- In 1976; Palestinian and Left organizations defeated the right wing Maronite … USA, France and Israel asked Syria to protect the Maronite or they will going to occupy Lebanon..


- Upon request of Maronite, Syrian army decided to enter Lebanon, they destroyed the Palestinian organizations. One of bloodiest masscres by Syrian (and Maronite) was the masscre of Tel Zater (6000 Palestinian civilian were killed)

- The war continue and Israel in 1978 attacked south of Lebanon to destroy the other part of Palestinian forces and their alliance in the south.


- In 1982, Israel and their Lebanese alliance invaded Beirut and their invasion end with Sabra and Chatila massacre against the Palestinian and their Lebanese alliance.

- Israel occupied the South till 2000 and they left under the attacks of the Lebanese resistance.

- Syria decided to stop the civil war in 1990, so they end the Militia of Michael Awn and arranged international agreement declaring the end of the civil war.

In fact I believe that Lebanese should thank Syria for ending the civil war and saving their country. Otherwise the wars will not end till the last Lebanese or to divide the country into isolated cantons
selfAdjoint
#36
Mar12-05, 04:42 PM
Emeritus
PF Gold
P: 8,147
Quote Quote by Bilal
- In 1958, Lebanese left parties arranged demonstrations against the government (Kamil Shimon). These demonstrations arranged by the Duruz well known leader (Kamal Jumblat). Kamil Shimon asked USA to stop these demonstrations, so the Marines attacked the protesters and murdered hundreds of people.
Did not. Show your sources.


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