View Poll Results: How firm are your most profound beliefs?
I have changed my mind many times 6 25.00%
I occasionally change my mind. 8 33.33%
I rarely change my mind 8 33.33%
I never change my mind 2 8.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Beliefs vs logic

by Ivan Seeking
Tags: beliefs, logic
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Ivan Seeking
#1
Oct3-03, 01:40 PM
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How many people can honestly admit to changing their mind, as an adult, about a strong belief and due to a logical argument? For example: a belief in God or an afterlife, ghosts, or UFOs? Also consider things like environmental issues, social responsibility, war, nuclear power, save the whales, eating spotted owls baked or fried, or any other highly controversial issue of your life.

Personally, I have seen some of my interests gain intensity, sometimes nearing the point of belief, and I have also experienced a complete reversal in my attitude about other issues.
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russ_watters
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Oct3-03, 02:14 PM
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Not to completely change the point of the topic, but I don't consider all beliefs to be based on logical arguements. A religious one and a scientific one for example don't adhere to the same criterea.
Beren
#3
Oct3-03, 05:09 PM
P: 134
Originally posted by russ_watters
Not to completely change the point of the topic, but I don't consider all beliefs to be based on logical arguements. A religious one and a scientific one for example don't adhere to the same criterea.

Erm..who said they were based on logic? He means, have your opinions been changed about it because of a different point of view, or argument?

And for me, very rarely. I don't believe in much, and there's not a whole lot to change, with one notable exception. I was raised more or less with a religion, but at an early age I became an athiest, and haven't changed since.

Ivan Seeking
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Oct3-03, 05:13 PM
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Beliefs vs logic

Originally posted by russ_watters
Not to completely change the point of the topic, but I don't consider all beliefs to be based on logical arguements. A religious one and a scientific one for example don't adhere to the same criterea.
Sure. But a person may stop believing in God because of a theory of evolution; or one may decide otherwise by way of some logical, philosophical argument.
TENYEARS
#5
Oct3-03, 10:00 PM
P: 495
Belief is something which is unknown. It is a decision about something you do not know. It may be wrong or it may be right.

Logic may also be wrong. Because the logic used may fall within a set of working paramters which does not go beyond a limited system.

Real knowlege is beyond both because it enters a realm which is apparently not readily understood by many. Not because of lacked capacity, most likey lacked desire.
Beren
#6
Oct3-03, 11:09 PM
P: 134
Belief is something which is unknown. It is a decision about something you do not know. It may be wrong or it may be right.
Since when? I believe that the chair I'm sitting on exists, and that's not an unknown.

Belief is generally associated with the unknown, but it isn't only related with that. Read the original post all the way through, you'll see examples are even stated.
TENYEARS
#7
Oct4-03, 10:50 AM
P: 495
There is a state of existance beyond belief and beyond logic, but if you wish...

How do you know you are really sitting in the chair? If you were "mad" would it be a chair maybe a rock in the desert? How would you logically deduce that you were not or are not dreaming?

If you were in a state of knowing and you knew you were sitting in a chair, would that be belief or knowing?

A belief is that which you decide upon, but do not know. Logic is the same thing, but uses sets of parameters and defined rules within a "limited" scope.

Who is it that will pick up the staff and walk forward?
Beren
#8
Oct4-03, 11:08 AM
P: 134
There is a state of existance beyond belief and beyond logic, but if you wish...
No, there's not. What you see, is what you get. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is generally the correct one.

Like it or not, we live in a closed system.
russ_watters
#9
Oct4-03, 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Sure. But a person may stop believing in God because of a theory of evolution; or one may decide otherwise by way of some logical, philosophical argument.
They could but generally they don't. Since you don't gain the belief because of logic, why would logic cause you to change it? Maybe this is your point with the poll though...
Beren
#10
Oct4-03, 01:41 PM
P: 134
Originally posted by russ_watters
They could but generally they don't. Since you don't gain the belief because of logic, why would logic cause you to change it? Maybe this is your point with the poll though...

Most of my beliefs, etc. are changed by logic. I'm the minority, this I realise, but I'm sure it happens quite often.
russ_watters
#11
Oct5-03, 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Beren
Most of my beliefs, etc. are changed by logic. I'm the minority, this I realise, but I'm sure it happens quite often.
I would figure most athiest fall into this category: they don't believe anything without some evidence. That doesn't affect my point though.
Beren
#12
Oct5-03, 09:40 AM
P: 134
Originally posted by russ_watters
I would figure most athiest fall into this category: they don't believe anything without some evidence. That doesn't affect my point though.
Well, considering the number of athiests, it really does affect your point. And again, that is the point of the poll..so yeah.
TENYEARS
#13
Oct5-03, 09:52 AM
P: 495
Originally posted by Beren
No, there's not. What you see, is what you get. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is generally the correct one.

Like it or not, we live in a closed system.
I do not argue with chimes nor will I argue with you. Your first sentence is correct the last six words I would think about.
Beren
#14
Oct5-03, 09:58 AM
P: 134
I think you mean last 8 words.

The simplest explanation, to me, is that we live in a closed system with set, unbreakable, parameters. Trying to add a "supernatural" element into the system complicates things to an unnecessary extent.
TENYEARS
#15
Oct5-03, 10:17 AM
P: 495
Do know what gravity or matter is? Until you have a realization on it, what you have is a belief of a closed system. There is no such thing as the supernatural only that which is not understood. If a person does not understand something that does not exclude it's existance.

The tankless fish tank with the well respected boarders.
russ_watters
#16
Oct5-03, 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Beren
Well, considering the number of athiests, it really does affect your point. And again, that is the point of the poll..so yeah.
No, what I meant is that someone of a strictly logical worldview isn't going to have religious beliefs in the first place.

Maybe what you are really asking is if anyone has changed from a spiritual to a logical worldview?
Beren
#17
Oct5-03, 04:15 PM
P: 134
No, what I meant is that someone of a strictly logical worldview isn't going to have religious beliefs in the first place.

Maybe what you are really asking is if anyone has changed from a spiritual to a logical worldview?
You're completely contradicting yourself. The topic isn't limited to spiritual views. Perhaps I believed that dinosaurs we're wiped out by martians, but after studying for a while, realised that data pointed towards a meteor strike. My view would have been changed by information and logic. (a badly worded example, I realise, but you get the point)
russ_watters
#18
Oct8-03, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Beren
You're completely contradicting yourself. The topic isn't limited to spiritual views. Perhaps I believed that dinosaurs we're wiped out by martians, but after studying for a while, realised that data pointed towards a meteor strike. My view would have been changed by information and logic. (a badly worded example, I realise, but you get the point)
When I say "spiritual" I mean faith based. Spiritual (religious) beliefs are the most common faith based beliefs.

On what exactly did you base your belief about martians and the dinosaurs? If it was facts and logic, even if incomplete, thats a logical worldview.

A "worldview" is an approach to or way of looking at the world. When discussing beliefs, there are only two possibilities - either you base them on logic/evidence or you base them on faith. Its a spectrum though, no one is entirely logical (except Spock) and no one is entirely faithful.

Now when I said maybe Ivan was asking if people changed their worldview, this particular worldview DOES change for virtually everyone. Its part of the process of maturing. When you are born you have complete faith in your parents. Until you are maybe 5 you believe absolutely everything they tell you without question. Then gradually you start to look for evidence - you become more logical. Santa and the Easter Bunny die. By your early-mid 20s, the process is pretty much finished and after that, you're pretty much set in your worldview.

I answered "rarely" to the poll, but thats based on only the past 10 years up until I considered my views "mature".


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