What are Cross Products and How Do They Relate to Tensors?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of cross products in vector mathematics and their relationship to tensors. Participants explore algebraic methods for understanding cross products, as well as the implications of tensors in vector identities.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the algebraic derivation of the cross product from vector components.
  • Another participant explains the distributive property of the cross product and notes that certain products equal zero when the same unit vectors are involved.
  • A suggestion is made to learn about Cartesian tensors to better understand vector identities.
  • Another computational approach is introduced, involving the determinant of a 3x3 matrix to define the cross product.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about progressing to tensors due to a lack of background in vector calculus.
  • One participant encourages others not to fear tensors, explaining that the dot product is a simple example of a tensor and discussing the nature of linear and bilinear maps.
  • Concerns are raised about misconceptions regarding tensors and their representation through indices, emphasizing the distinction between notation and the underlying concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and comfort with the concepts of cross products and tensors. While some find the explanations helpful, others indicate a lack of readiness to engage with tensors, suggesting that multiple competing views remain on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention limitations in their understanding of vector calculus and tensors, indicating that their grasp of the concepts may depend on prior knowledge and definitions.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in vector mathematics, particularly those seeking to understand cross products and their relation to tensors, as well as those at different levels of familiarity with these concepts.

misogynisticfeminist
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I do not understand something about cross products. Say,

[tex]\vec A\times \vec B=\vec C=(C_x, C_y, C_z)[/tex]

and,

[tex]\vec C=(A_x \hat x+A_y \hat y+A_z \hat z)\times (B_x \hat x+B_y \hat y+B_z \hat z)[/tex]

but why is this equivalent to

[tex](A_x B_y - A_y B_x)\hat x \times \hat y + (A_x B_z - A_z B_x) \hat x \times \hat z + (A_y B_z - A_z B_y) \hat y \times \hat z[/tex]

?

Can someone show me how do i get this? Preferbly an algebraic method instead of a geometric one, because I am poor at visualizing stuff.
 
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Because

[tex]\vec C=(A_x \hat x+A_y \hat y+A_z \hat z)\times (B_x \hat x+B_y \hat y+B_z \hat z)[/tex]

can be written as (using the distributive property)

[tex]\vec C= A_x \hat x \times (B_x \hat x+B_y \hat y+B_z \hat z)[/tex]

+ [tex]A_y \hat y \times (B_x \hat x+B_y \hat y+B_z \hat z)[/tex]

+ [tex]A_z \hat z \times (B_x \hat x+B_y \hat y+B_z \hat z)[/tex]

then [tex]\hat x \times \hat x = \hat y \times \hat y = \hat z \times \hat z[/tex] = 0

and [tex]\hat x \times \hat y[/tex] = - [tex]\hat y \times \hat x[/tex] and so on.
 
Hey, thanks, that was helpful, I've gotten it already...

: )
 
If you're dealing with vector identites,i've got an advice:learn cartesian tensors.

Daniel.
 
another computational way is to use a definition of cross product such as: the cross product of A and B is the determinant of the 3 by 3 matrix with x,y,z (your notation) in the first rwo and the entries of A in the second row, and the entries of B in the third row.
 
mathwonk: the matrix idea helped too...

dexter: I apparently haven't even started on vector calc yet, so I don't think i can go into tensors yet.

: )
 
do not be afraid of tensors. the dot product is the first tensor we meet. tensors are multilinear as opposed to merely linear. the dot product is bilinear, hence the simplest tensor.


a derivative is a linear map that approximates a function. the second derivative is a bilinear map that approximates the difference between function and its derivative, and so on...


do not be misled by the confusing gobbledygook found here about upper and lower indices as being tensors. that is pablum for people who refuse to learn what tensors are.

there is some truth in it, but it is like saying that a linear map is a matrix. i.e. the matrix is a notational representation of a linear map, not the linear map itself. similarly an array of upper and lower indices is a representation of a tensor and not the tensor itself.

do not be seduced by the "dark side"!
 

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