What's the Flaw in the Relativity Paradox of Gravity and Speed?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Shaw
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Paradox Relativity
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of General Relativity (GR) in the context of a particle moving near the speed of light within the gravitational field of the Sun. Participants explore the paradoxes related to acceleration, time dilation, and the nature of gravitational fields in relativistic contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that without a universal reference, it is unclear which object has undergone acceleration, proposing that the Sun could be moving near the speed of light while the particle remains at rest.
  • Another participant humorously asserts that according to GR, neither object has been accelerated.
  • A participant raises the twin paradox, questioning how acceleration affects the aging of the twins and suggesting that only the twin who accelerates is impacted.
  • One reply clarifies that proper time is computed using the metric and that the theorem regarding proper time applies locally, emphasizing that comparisons between paths require careful computation in general space-time.
  • A repeated point from the initial post highlights a potential flaw in assuming the gravitational field of a moving object is equivalent to that of a stationary one, noting that GR does not support this assumption.
  • Another participant elaborates that the space-time curvature's components will affect the accuracy of models treating gravity as a force, especially at relativistic speeds.
  • Qualitatively, it is noted that the gravitational field of a moving object differs from that of a stationary one, similar to how electric fields transform with velocity.
  • A suggestion is made to first understand the transformation of electric fields at relativistic speeds before addressing gravitational transformations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of acceleration in GR and the nature of gravitational fields in relativistic contexts. No consensus is reached, and multiple competing interpretations remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their assumptions regarding gravitational fields and the complexities involved in comparing proper times along different paths in general space-time.

Shaw
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Consider a small particle traversing the Sun's gravitational field near the speed of light. Without reference to the rest of the universe, we are unable to say anything about which object has undergone the acceleration. The particle could be at rest and the Sun could be moving near the speed of light, in which case General Relativity requires no change in the Sun's force of gravity, while time has slowed to a crawl within its frame of reference.

This appears to mean that the particle will experience normal gravitation for a much longer period of time than if the Sun had not received all the acceleration, so the particle could be made to curve through almost any angle, depending on the Sun's velocity.This is unlikely to be true, but where is the flaw.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
According to GR, neither has been accelerated. :-p
 
Paradox

I understand that should be the case, but don't you run into trouble with the twin paradox. Some argue that either twin could be younger, but this is a misreading of GR. Only the twin who's undergone acceleration is affected.
 
Not quite. The proper time experienced along a path is computed with the metric. (analogous to simply computing the length of a curve)

The fact you quote is a theorem about flat space -- the longest proper time between two points is experienced along a straight line. Among multiple such paths, the one that deviates the least from a geodesic (i.e.a straight line) experiences less proper time.


In a general space-time, this theorem is only true locally. If two paths are almost the same, the one that deviates less from the geodesic still undergoes the greater proper time. However, when two paths are not almost the same, all bets are off -- you need to find some other way to compare the two proper times. (Such as actually computing them)
 
Shaw said:
Consider a small particle traversing the Sun's gravitational field near the speed of light. Without reference to the rest of the universe, we are unable to say anything about which object has undergone the acceleration. The particle could be at rest and the Sun could be moving near the speed of light, in which case General Relativity requires no change in the Sun's force of gravity, while time has slowed to a crawl within its frame of reference.

This appears to mean that the particle will experience normal gravitation for a much longer period of time than if the Sun had not received all the acceleration, so the particle could be made to curve through almost any angle, depending on the Sun's velocity.This is unlikely to be true, but where is the flaw.

One of the flaws is assuming that the gravitational field of a moving object is the same as that of a stationary object. It's not the same, and GR does not say that it is the same.

The space components of the space-time curvature will prevent any model of the situation "as a force" from giving quantitatively correct answers.
[clarification] when the velocity of the moving object is a large fraction of the speed of light.

Qualitiatively speaking, though, the situation will be very similar to that of the electric field of an object moving at a relativistic velocity. The field lines will be considerably concentrated in the direction perpendicular to the direciton of motion, meaning that the transverse field will be very much stronger than the "normal" field of a statioanry body.

[add] Because the transformation of the electric field is a very much simpler mathematically, I generally urge people to become familiar with how the electric field transforms with velocity first, before worrying about how gravity transforms.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
7K
  • · Replies 47 ·
2
Replies
47
Views
5K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
3K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K