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Can we blow up a Tornado?

by Dennmann57
Tags: blow, tornado
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Dennmann57
#1
May21-13, 06:30 PM
P: 2
I have an idea for you on defusing or dissipating tornados.

I thought that a sufficiently large explosion at the right time and place in the interior of a tornado funnel about to touch down would force the tornado to collapse and render it harmless. It could be delivered by ballistic or cruise missile, and I believe we have very powerful non-nuclear bombs at our disposal.

Even if only those tornados headed towards populated areas could be defused or weakened, a great saving in life and property could be realized.



My condolences to all the victims in Oklahoma.
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Simon Bridge
#2
May22-13, 02:08 AM
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Welcome to PF;
You are thinking of disrupting the wind patterns that make the tornado?

A big tornado like the one that just hit Oklahoma is driven by atomic-bomb levels energy - the energy system driving the funnel you see has built up over a long time and covers a wide area. You would definitely need nuclear weapon levels of explosives before the tornado would even notice.

Then there is the problem of delivery - it takes a missile some time to reach it's target and the touchdown point is very hard to predict. You'd be better to try to disrupt the patter as it builds - but even then... see above. If you could figure how to get it to work - there may be an advantage in having the destruction occur someplace we choose.

However, it is not clear how a bomb would actually help - I'd expect the energy of a nuclear bomb, particularly at the touchdown point, would just make things worse. You could try blowing up lots of them around the tornado hoping to draw the winds away ... but I would expect the tornado to reform since the forces bringing it into existence are still there - only now it's radioactive.

It's a popular question online.
davenn
#3
May22-13, 02:59 AM
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and finally the explosion, chemical or nuclear is likely to do just as much damage as the tornado
so ... pretty pointless

Dave

Dennmann57
#4
May22-13, 04:15 AM
P: 2
Can we blow up a Tornado?

I suppose as our radar tracking gets better, we might have a chance in the future, but I see what you mean about needing an atomic weapon for a monster like the one that just hit Oklahoma. Thanks for the input.
Banquo
#5
May22-13, 05:49 AM
P: 1
You can't use atomic bombs to destroy a powerful tornado. Even if it worked, the results in terms of heat and blast damage and long-term atmospheric radiation pollution would be equally devastating. An anti-tornado 'barrier' that starves a tornado heading towards a city of inrush energy and so deflects its path would be very expensive but might just work - except for any tornado that touches down within the protected zone. The best and least costly solution I can think of is simply tornado proof buildings - shallow, smooth-surfaced reinforced concrete domes that offer no resistance and so remain unscathed as a tornado passes over it.
Simon Bridge
#6
May22-13, 06:47 AM
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and finally the explosion, chemical or nuclear is likely to do just as much damage as the tornado
so ... pretty pointless
There may be a percentage in controlling where the damage occurs though - if it came to a choice between a tornado ripping through a city and a bomb stopping the tornado outside the city...

@Banquo: welcome to PF;
You are right - tornado-proof buildings are probably cheaper, certainly than the nuke option ... though I notice that the main reason many homes in the path of the recent one did not have tornado shelters or proofing was simply that the owners couldn't afford it.
Sometimes it is a matter of who does the paying.

But I think the original question has been answered.
Solkar
#7
May22-13, 10:59 AM
P: 100
German wikipedia has good schematics of a tornado:

(click on image for larger version)

Credits:
Created by Michael Graf / Michael81 in 2006
Public Domain, according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:S...lle_schema.gif


Translation (mine) ordered following label positions; clockwise starting at 12:00:
  • "Superzelle von Süden her betrachtet" = supercell seen from the south
  • "Konvektives Überschiessen" ~= convective excess
  • "Rotierender Aufwind" = rotating updraft
  • "Eiskristallwolken" = ice crystal clouds
  • "Gleichgewichtsniveau" = level of equilibrium
  • "Mammatuswolken" = mammatus(?) clouds
  • "Niederschlagsfallstreifen" = virga
  • "verdunstender Niederschlag" = evaporating precipitation
  • "Kondensationsniveau" = level of condensation
  • "Warmluft" = warm air
  • "Regenfreie Wolkenbasis" = rain-free cloud base
  • "Zugrichtung" ~= direction of movement / direction of motion
  • "Pseudokaltfront" = pseudo cold front
  • "Kaltluft" = cold air
  • "Fallstreifen" =~ (lit.) fall stripes
  • "Niederschlagsfallstreifen" = virga
  • "Auf- und Abwinde" = up- and downdrafts
  • "Mammatuswolken" = mammatus(?) clouds
  • "Eiskristallwolken" = ice crystal clouds
Ophiolite
#8
May27-13, 05:54 AM
P: 274
An alternative approach would be to release butterflies. No, I'm not crazy - it's a metaphor.

Many of of you will be familiar with the poster child of chaos theory, the Brazilian butterfly that, with one flap of its wings so changes the dynamics of the airflow that ultimately a hurricane is triggered in the Caribbean.

Specifically, at some point in the future our understanding of tornadoes, our modelliing software speeds and our sensors will be of a sufficient calibre to anticipate what initial conditions need to be disrupted, in a small way, to forestall tornado formation. At that time Dennmann57's proposal may become practical.
LastOneStanding
#9
May27-13, 08:14 AM
P: 718
Quote Quote by Ophiolite View Post
Many of of you will be familiar with the poster child of chaos theory, the Brazilian butterfly that, with one flap of its wings so changes the dynamics of the airflow that ultimately a hurricane is triggered in the Caribbean.

Specifically, at some point in the future our understanding of tornadoes, our modelliing software speeds and our sensors will be of a sufficient calibre to anticipate what initial conditions need to be disrupted, in a small way, to forestall tornado formation. At that time Dennmann57's proposal may become practical.
You have it exactly backwards: that is the opposite conclusion that chaos theory implies. The point of the butterfly effect is that chaotic systems are dependent on such tiny changes to their initial conditions that long time/large scale forecasting is impossible. There is always a degree of experimental uncertainty and, in chaotic systems, this uncertainty (however slight) is enough to severely limit your ability to predict the system's behaviour because of how rapidly the uncertainty grows.
Dotini
#10
Feb25-14, 06:50 PM
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/weathe...alley/5808887/

An amusing article about a physicist who wants to build 1000' tall walls across the midwest to stop tornadoes, and the meteorologists who scorn him.
SteamKing
#11
Feb25-14, 07:32 PM
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Quote Quote by Dotini View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/weathe...alley/5808887/

An amusing article about a physicist who wants to build 1000' tall walls across the midwest to stop tornadoes, and the meteorologists who scorn him.
At only $60 billion per 100 miles of wall, why use stone or other material when you can just use gold?

In any event, the previous idea about using a nuclear detonation to disrupt a tornado is a non-starter for an entirely non-technical reason: such an explosion would violate the Limited Test Ban Treaty signed by the US and other nations in 1963. The treaty prohibits testing of nuclear weapons or any other nuclear explosions in the atmosphere, under water, or in outer space.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4797.htm
Vanadium 50
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Feb25-14, 09:36 PM
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Quote Quote by Dennmann57 View Post
It could be delivered by ballistic or cruise missile
Average economic impact of a tornado: $300,000
Cost of a cruise missile: $1,400,000
Evo
#13
Feb25-14, 11:32 PM
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How do you know if a tornado will form? And if one does form, they are usually very short lived, and the blast from a missile if it's over a densely populated area????
Simon Bridge
#14
Feb26-14, 12:41 AM
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Quote Quote by Vanadium 50 View Post
Average economic impact of a tornado: $300,000
Cost of a cruise missile: $1,400,000
Where are you getting those figures?

iirc. The 1.4mil price tag belongs to the tomahawk cruise missile
There are other kinds - the cost sans warhead can go below half that (still too high) but what you are really looking for is some kind of UAV capable of not crashing before it gets sucked into the tornado right? The technology in the typical cruise missile is way overkill.

Tornado season results in damages in the billions:
\http://useconomy.about.com/od/critic...ado-Damage.htm

But estimating the impact on the economy is tricky
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publicatio...icles/?id=1880

Certainly you wouldn't want to spend UD$0.5 - 1.4M on every tornado - but maybe it is a good idea for the really big ones like in Oklahoma last year?

Provided of course that the damages from using an effective tornado buster is not worse than the tornado.
Simon Bridge
#15
Feb26-14, 12:43 AM
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Some of these things remind me of the stories about the town that builds a tall wall around it's borders to keep the birds from migrating or the people who build a building without windows so the light cannot escape at night only to discover they forgot to put any light in to begin with so they try trucking it inside in wheelbarrows.... those sorts of stories.
D H
#16
Feb26-14, 06:58 AM
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Quote Quote by Vanadium 50 View Post
Average economic impact of a tornado: $300,000
Cost of a cruise missile: $1,400,000
Cost of the 2011 Alabama tornados: $3,740,000,000
Cost of the 2011 Joplin Missouri tornado: 2,800,000,000
Cost of the 2013 Moore Oklahoma tornado: $2,000,000,000 to $3,000,000,000

We don't have to get every single tornado. Just the ones that cost a whole lot.

That said, tossing a nuke at a supercell isn't exactly a brilliant idea.
.Scott
#17
Mar4-14, 08:01 PM
P: 540
A bomb won't work - but I don't thing any of these posts really hits the important reason.

My experience on this matter is based on the meteorological material that I was required to study to get my pilots license, study beyond that, and certainly from my experience as a pilot watching thunderstorms develop first hand.

Cumulonimbus clouds form from an unstable air mass. When a parcel of air is moved upward, it expands and experiences adiabatic cooling. Its exact response is also influenced by its moisture content. Once the parcel of air has been displaced upward, its new density can be compared to the density of the air that it just moved into. If it is heavier it will move back downward - thus the air mass is stable. But if it becomes lighter than the surrounding air, then the air mass is referred to as "unstable" and the air parcel will continue to move up.

As the sun bakes the ground during the day, the lower parts of the atmosphere are heated and begin to rise. This changes the vertical temperature and moisture profile of the air mass and during the summer, and generally make it less stable. With enough direct sun, the effects on the air can be easily seen from a small plane climbing in flight. If you keep a sharp eye out for sky color, you will notice that at certain altitude you will break through the haze layer - and the sky will shift from whitish to a strong blue.

Of course, the other effect you see is the development of cumulus clouds from infrequent small fluffy things (perfect for sail planes) to more and more massive and taller structures. Each one of those clouds is generated from a rising column of air. If any one of these air columns creates a rain cloud, with perhaps considerable ground resistance, it will partially "spoil" the air in that area - sapping some of its energy - making it more stable. The actual formation of a cumulonimbus cloud occurs when one of these columns is able to build up in a larger and larger area of unstable air.

So, what would a bomb do. For the most part, it would add energy to the air mass. Not something that would help.

As for trying to stop these things before they get started... Flying through an area of rising cumulus clouds, you are in a target rich environment. In an area destined for the formation of thunderheads, every couple of thousand feet you will find another 7,000+ foot cumulus tower that could be the next thunderhead. And you wouldn't want to stop the ones that cause a little rain showers, because they're helping you by draining moisture from the air - unless it's one that's in a clear path to more and more unstable air.
Simon Bridge
#18
Mar5-14, 07:33 AM
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So, what would a bomb do. For the most part, it would add energy to the air mass. Not something that would help.
I think the core idea is not so much to randomly nuke tornadoes but create a large pressure difference to disrupt the air mass... hopefully disorganizing it long enough that the conditions for formation pass.

It's a bit like the idea of using high explosive to put out a fire - it looks like you are just adding more energy to the area the fire is in but, carefully placed, the energy from the blast need not add to the fires energy.
In detail: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=370808

However we are talking about disrupting a "long-lived" tornado - typically forming within a supercell thunderstorm - hopefully shortening the life-cycle of an existing one and so minimizing the possible damage. I think that's very "hopeful".

Big explosions can be pretty disruptive - you don't want to try flying near a nuclear blast either - but whether they can get big enough to disrupt a big tornado? That would be an interesting experiment - I'd like to see anyone get it past an ethics committee though. Other methods that have been considered include large conventional explosions and large blocks of dry ice. The main problem appears to have been deployment.

NSSL talks about this topic in their tornado FAQ.
https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/...tornadoes/faq/
You have to consider that the tornado is part of something bigger: the supercell thunderstorm. Unless you disrupt the supercell thunderstorm itself, you would likely have another tornado, even if you were able to destroy the first. The thunderstorm's energy is much greater than the tornado. No one has tried to disrupt the tornado because the methods to do so could likely cause even more damage than the tornado. Detonating a hydrogen bomb, for example, to disrupt a tornado would be even more deadly and destructive than the tornado itself. Lesser things (like huge piles of dry ice or smaller conventional weaponry) would be too hard to deploy in the right place fast enough, and would likely not have enough impact to affect the tornado much anyway.
... the site seems to be a decent 1st stop if you want to know about tornadoes and tornado research.

BTW: related thread from 2010 on the question of preventing Tornadoes.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=318460


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