Theory Development

arildno

By which they have shown a solid understanding and knowledge of the very limited area in which the error occurred.

Tom Mattson

OK, fine. Some people choose to work alone, and there's nothing that anyone can do to stop them. But that's not exactly what we were talking about, was it? We were talking about why you haven't produced any examples of meritorious work that has been neglected by the journal system. And you have already given your answer: You don't have any examples, and you will not look for any.

So at least that settles that.

You certainly will not find one if you will not look for one.

Do you really need Tipler to tell you what is happening? Why don't you just look at sci.physics.research, or any other usenet group, and see for yourself that independent researchers and professional scientists occupy the same informal channels of communication. ZapperZ is a professional scientist, and he has told you himself that he has seen independent theories on the internet since 1988.

ZapperZ

If you think that you can easily and naively pin-point the reason why there are no more "Einstein" out there, then you are more ignorant than I even thought. This is especially true when Lee Smolin wrote an outstanding essay in THIS MONTH'S Physics Today titled "Why No 'New Einstein'?" Read it and see if it matches what you have in mind. Or do you only pay attention to Tipler, and even then, only select bits and pieces of what Tipler said?

Zz.

Zanket

Actually, it’s one of the main points being discussed here of late. The point is, when these people work alone to produce a great idea, the idea has a decent chance of being (all but) lost to science when their idea is often rejected out of hand by the peer-review process, merely for being novel or merely because the author lacks credentials. A reasonable person should not need any examples of actual loss to believe that there is a problem with such a process.

And no, I will not spend the rest of my life sifting through papers to find a gem to show you. It is unreasonable to suggest that I do, to make my point.

Tiper covers this in the first paragraphs of his paper. He says that a paper is generally ignored by scientists until it is published in a peer-reviewed journal. Tipler implies that, if Einstein submitted his 1905 papers today, they would be lost to science due to being rejected by the peer-reviewed journals.

And yeah, I really like Tipler’s paper. He says in it that today’s “unknown patent office clerk” is relegated to putting their paper in the lanl database (arXiv for physics). But, as I pointed out to him, that door has been closed. Now such authors need an endorsement from other authors in the database, but the endorsement rules for arXiv specifically warn endorsers: “You should not endorse the author … if the work is entirely disconnected with current work in the area”. In other words, do not endorse novel ideas; endorse only incremental ideas. There’s a good chance that an Einstein today, as a patent office clerk working alone, but having a paper as revolutionary as, say, special relativity, would not qualify even for arXiv.

Zanket

Sounds like an interesting article, thanks. Alas, it seems to be available only by subscription. :(

I don't think I've taken Tipler out of context.

ZapperZ

But this is HINDSIGHT SPECULATION! It is NOT FACT!

I can also speculate that papers like Einstein WOULD be able to get published in peer-reviewed journals. In fact, they would have a GREATER chance at getting published because (i) there are waaaaay more physics journals than there were before (ii) most physics journals no longer have the all-powerful editors that sometime unilaterally decide on the fate of all papers (iii) even dubious and sometime highly controversial papers get published!

So what makes my speculation any worse than Tipler and yours? Unlike you, I can actually point to actual examples of all three points that I just made, so my speculation can be backed by real examples that actually happened, not just GUESSES.

You have the propensity of turning speculations and guesses into "facts", when in fact you have zero evidence. If you do this in your "paper", you shouldn't be surprised that it is rejected because of it and not because of what you think! Overly speculative as a response MAY in fact be accurate. Have you ever considered that possibility?

Zz.

Zanket

Let’s see your actual examples. Tipler offers real examples too.

You think Tipler is lying in his examples of groundbreaking papers whose authors say they initially got rejected by peer-reviewed journals?

You’ve made a tenuous link to the “abstract” thread. The sci.physics.research mod subsequently told me that he did not read my paper. It turns out that s.p.r. does not allow discussion of unpublished papers, even a link to one. On s.p.r., unpublished papers are automatically “overly speculative.” Believe it or not.

jma2001

There is a link to a "freely available" copy of Smolin's article here, if you wanted to read it:
http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/06/wh...-einstein.html

By the way, Zanket, thanks for sending me the link to your paper. As I told you before, I don't know enough about relativity to judge its validity, but it is clear that you put a lot of thought into it, and it does not read like an obvious crackpottery, at least not to me.

I am curious, though, why you are reluctant to post a link on this forum? Normally, links to personal theories are not allowed on PF, but I would think in your case an exception could be made, since your paper has been the subject of so much discussion. I am sure there are members other than myself (for instance, those who gave you advice in the "abstract" thread) who would be interested to read it.

Tom Mattson

That wasn't the point that I responded to. I responded to your point that "basic logic" dictates that it is impossible for you to cite a single, worthwhile example of independent research that was rejected by the peer-review process.

In the course of the last few posts it has become clear that in order to concede to that point of yours, one would have to accept that every single independent theorist who does quality work is a complete recluse who does not collaborate with anyone. Aside from the fact that you have no evidence that such worthwhile independent research is even taking place, I still fail to see how it is not a far more likely scenario that this neo-Einstein is on usenet, or even on some vBulletin Forum, making his ideas known. Why wouldn't he be?

A reasonable person should not be expected to be bothered by what *might* happen under speculative conditions which he considers highly unlikely.

Well, then you will never turn up any evidence to support your claim. But as is clear from your other comments, this does not seem to bother you. But it should not be difficult to understand why other people do not think your point carries any force.

Sorry, but it is exactly what you have to do to make your point.

jma2001

If the moderated Usenet groups do not allow unpublished papers to be discussed, that might explain why.

Tom Mattson

Have you ever read usenet?

Thumb through the sci.* groups sometime. You'll find more non mainstream threads than you could possibly want to. Not being privvy to Zanket's conversation with the s.p.r mod, I don't know why his paper was rejected. What I do know is that right now, on the front page of s.p.r. is a thread entitled "New Physics Theory". Go check it out for yourself.

Zanket

Thanks for the link! I'm reading it now. And thank you for your comments on my paper. Since I don’t want to discuss that here, I’ll email you my reply to your questions about it.

jma2001

Yes, and I don't know how that could have gotten through the moderation while Zanket's paper was rejected. That web site does read like an obvious crackpottery, here are a few excerpts:

"Physics took a wrong turn 100 years ago from which it never recovered. It was transformed from the physical to the mathematical, which are merely tools for making calculations. It can be portrayed as God's magic trick, where physicists are spectators too easily satisfied without discovering how the trick is accomplished ...

"This book, begun in 1999, is a work-in-progress dealing with an all-encompassing physics theory, generically termed as a "theory of everything." Proposed is a new model of the universe, called the gyroverse, which explains the most mysterious physics anomalies ..."

Perhaps the inconsistency in applying the rules is part of the frustration.

Look, I do not wish to take sides in this debate, I am merely a curious amateur who is genuinely interested to know whether there is anything of value in Zanket's paper. As I said, I am not qualified to evaluate it myself, but if you, or ZapperZ, or Doc Al, were to read it and conclude that it is flawed, I would accept your judgement and drop the subject. The fact that no one is willing to even read his paper is what bothers me.

ZapperZ

1. Count the number of physics journals today, and in 1905.

2. Count the number of journals that have single editor such as at Annalen... that have the same authority as in pre 1920.

3. (i) Podlketnov paper (ii) Fleishman and Pons cold fusion paper (yes, even THAT notorious paper got published!).

(i) You seem to think that there's something "special" about being rejected and (ii) that once rejected, that papers will NEVER ever get published. What will it take to get through your head that such a thing is VERY COMMON, even TODAY?! Please tell me. I've mentioned this 3, 4 times (even cited my OWN example with Science). They are ground breaking because .... horrors... they actually MADE it into peer-reviewed journals! What a concept!

It is because all of this are just symptoms of the same disease! Sci.physics is open... send your overspeculative paper there, why don't you?

In all of this, not once have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, that your paper is at fault. If you use the SAME reasoning and lack of background check that you have shown on here, I find that more than just a possibility.

Zz.

Zanket

As much as I like a debate (I recently found out that “zanket” means “quarrel” in German), I’ve spent too much time on this thread, and we're mostly entrenched it seems, so this will be my last post here. I’ll address some final points made and then y’all can have at it when I’m gone. I'll consider your responses, and thanks for the info and links so far.

I must have hit a nerve, because a point that is minor to me has been blown up to make it sound like I think the whole peer-review process is worthless, which isn’t so. My point of late has been that a process that summarily rejects papers merely for being novel or the author uncredentialed is suboptimal, because it may cause science to lose (or significantly defer) groundbreaking papers. I think that conclusion requires only common sense. To prove a chance of something happening does not require proving that it has actually happened; e.g. proving that a groundbreaking paper has been lost to science. I won’t concede on that.

The point has been made that the odds of such loss to science is nil, despite the roadblocks imposed by the current peer-review process, due to the sheer number of avenues in which papers can be discussed, and the openness of those avenues (e.g. gatekeepers have less unilateral power than in the past). That may be true, but it seems unlikely to me, and it works only for a one-hit-wonder neo-Einstein. It seems unlikely to me that any of the popular journals would be amenable to novel ideas, when even arXiv, a non-peer-reviewed repository, warns endorsers (required for new submitters) against endorsing novel ideas. If a groundbreaking idea is accepted by an open-minded but unpopular journal, say, what are the odds that the idea will eventually become generally accepted? I’d say small, but I could be wrong. Now, suppose this author has more ideas to share. Then they are wasting time struggling to become published in a noticeable way instead of working on the next idea or next level of the previous idea. I would not have wanted Einstein to spend from 1905 to 1910 trying to get special relativity published in a popular journal. That such a system is being vehemently upheld here is pretty amazing to me. From this discussion—especially from the vitriolic comments that I have overspeculated here—I now understand why groundbreaking papers are routinely rejected out of hand by the peer-reviewed journals.

ZapperZ

.. and with your parting shot, you again demonstrated your inability to comprehend what you said and how inconsistenly you apply your own rules. For example:

Yet, you then DISMISSED:

So you ACCEPT as FACT one case where there is insignificant event (science losing "groundbraking papers", even when you can't produce any) but you dismiss ANOTHER insignificant event as not true (odds of such loss to science). So two insignificant events, but with different acceptance based on nothing but a matter of TASTES.

It would be appropriate that this is how it all ends.

Zz.

Moonbear

But the point you seem to be missing all along is that novelty is not just encouraged, but required for publishing in journals. The process does not summarily reject papers for being novel, it is more likely to summarily reject a paper for NOT being sufficiently novel. The more novel the finding, the more likely it is to get published and to get a more favorable review. However, a novel idea is not sufficient if it is not borne out by a solid experimental design and results that support the hypothesis.