Register to reply

Red Bull speed-ball?

by jackmell
Tags: bull, speedball
Share this thread:
jackmell
#1
Jun30-13, 10:08 AM
P: 1,666
Hi,

Is vodka and red-bull a speed-ball? Some where I went out to last night were drinking that. Sounds like it may be common. I am of course interested in this medically and not humorously.

Thanks,
Jack
Phys.Org News Partner Medical research news on Phys.org
New tuberculosis blood test in children is reliable and highly specific
Invisible blood in urine may indicate bladder cancer
Colombian president: No link of vaccine to illness
DiracPool
#2
Jun30-13, 09:00 PM
P: 580
I used to call that the poor man's speedball. And I'm no doctor, but I doubt you're gonna end up like John Belushi or River Phoenix if you pop a couple of those babies with the crew on a Saturday night
Evo
#3
Jun30-13, 09:28 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,552
Vodka + high caffeine drink = dumb

jackmell
#4
Jul1-13, 06:03 AM
P: 1,666
Red Bull speed-ball?

Oh you guys don't understand, you guys don't understand . . . I already talked to her about it dang it! She was acting . . . unusually wild, not vulgar, just what I guess a party-animal and I was trying to approach it in a scientific manner and concluded it must have been the drink. She said she had drank three. She gave me a taste (didn't realize it was a speed-ball at the time). My daughter and her boyfriend were with us that night. I talked to her about it . . .
bobze
#5
Jul1-13, 05:45 PM
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 645
Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
Hi,

Is vodka and red-bull a speed-ball? Some where I went out to last night were drinking that. Sounds like it may be common. I am of course interested in this medically and not humorously.

Thanks,
Jack
No. A speedball is slang for mixing cocaine and heroin. Obviously something not healthy. Redbull and vodka, while not healthy certainly isn't on par with speedballing, but nevertheless isn't a healthy habit either. Redbull, like Evo points out, contains lots of caffeine--which is a stimulant or "upper", while alcohol is a sedative or "downer". Mixing the two certainly isn't a great idea. The stimulating effects of caffeine can mask the sedative effects of alcohol, causing a person to continue to drink more than a safe amount. Leading to sedation, respiratory depression and death in severe cases.

There have been some studies (forgive me I dont have time to pull them right now, but just search for caffeinated alcoholic drinks and health risks) which show people are even more likely to engage in risky behaviors than compared to just drinking alone; such as drinking and driving.

Not to mention that both have diuretic effects and are like to leave you even more dehydrated and hungover in the morning.
jackmell
#6
Jul2-13, 06:52 AM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by bobze View Post
Redbull and vodka, while not healthy certainly isn't on par with speedballing
If we define speedballing as the simultaneous ingestion of a stimulant and a depressant, then the concoction would qualify as such.

I suppose though we could also define it in terms of it's physiological effects on the body like heart rate, temperature, other factors. I would expect the physiological effects of alcohol and red bull to resemble the effects of cocaine and heroin albeit perhaps in a milder way.

Would make for an interesting study. First we need to define precisely what are those effects and are they similar in the two cases.

Oh yeah, my son has since informed me that lots of people drink red bull and alcohol. I am so disappointed in the resourcefulness of people to regularly come up with new ways of ingesting drugs.
DiracPool
#7
Jul2-13, 02:13 PM
P: 580
Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
I suppose though we could also define it in terms of it's physiological effects on the body like heart rate, temperature, other factors. I would expect the physiological effects of alcohol and red bull to resemble the effects of cocaine and heroin albeit perhaps in a milder way.
"perhaps" a milder way?

I don't advocate drinking either red bull or vodka either alone or in combination, but to put this in the same class as a heroin-cocaine speedball is a big stretch. They are not even in the same ballpark, hence my humor in my previous post. With a real speedball you run the danger of an acute respiratory and/or cardiac collapse upon the initial administration. This is a very serious and very real danger for even the most experienced users and regardless of their health. The chance of an ordinary college student running such a risk by having a red bull and vodka out at Applebees on a Saturday night is so vanishingly small that to seriously call it a speedball is misplaced. That's why me calling it a "poor man's speedball" is supposed to be funny.

I mean, we could stretch the definition to say to say that if I mix a melatonin and a cup of coffee, that's also a speedball, right? What if I'm watching an action flick while my girlfriend is giving me a neck rub? Speedball?

Of course, if that college student starts to pound red bull and vodkas one after another, especially in a drinking contest or binge sort of way, then they certainly are going to be in trouble.
jackmell
#8
Jul2-13, 02:39 PM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by DiracPool View Post
They are not even in the same ballpark,
I disagree. They are in the same ballpark for the following reason: Caffeine is a stimulant, and alcohol is a depressant. Also, the term "speedball" is not reserved exclusively for the cocaine/heroin concoction but rather for a more wider class of depressant/stimulant mixtures as per the Wikipedia article on "speedballs".

I suppose I should have asked the more concise question:

Are the physiological and psychological effects of ingesting alcohol and caffeine simultaneously and in a sufficient dose, similar to the effects of ingesting cocaine and opium simultaneously?
DiracPool
#9
Jul2-13, 03:33 PM
P: 580
Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
I suppose I should have asked the more concise question:

Are the physiological and psychological effects of ingesting alcohol and caffeine simultaneously and in a sufficient dose, similar to the effects of ingesting cocaine and opium simultaneously?
The answer to that would be: perhaps qualitatively but not quantitatively, "gram for gram" under normal usage, as far as the physiological.

As far as the psychological, they are two very different "highs" to use a colloquial term. The opiate high is qualitatively different from alcohol high and they have different abuse trajectories. It is much more difficult to overdose to death drinking alcohol that it is injecting heroin. This is for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that tolerance builds much more quickly with opiates than alcohol and so does the threshold of getting high versus overdosing. Especially when talking about injecting the drug versus drinking it. No matter how much of a seasoned drinker you are, you are likely to get sick and vomit far below your overdose threshold. Granted, if you're drinking a caffeinated beverage while you are doing it, it changes that dynamic somewhat, but not in a way qualitatively comparable to injecting a heroin-cocaine speedball.
jackmell
#10
Jul2-13, 08:40 PM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by DiracPool View Post
The answer to that would be: perhaps qualitatively but not quantitatively, "gram for gram" under normal usage, as far as the physiological.

As far as the psychological, they are two very different "highs" to use a colloquial term. The opiate high is qualitatively different from alcohol high and they have different abuse trajectories. It is much more difficult to overdose to death drinking alcohol that it is injecting heroin. This is for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that tolerance builds much more quickly with opiates than alcohol and so does the threshold of getting high versus overdosing. Especially when talking about injecting the drug versus drinking it. No matter how much of a seasoned drinker you are, you are likely to get sick and vomit far below your overdose threshold. Granted, if you're drinking a caffeinated beverage while you are doing it, it changes that dynamic somewhat, but not in a way qualitatively comparable to injecting a heroin-cocaine speedball.
I'm afraid that's not empirical enough for me. This is a medical forum and I think we should try to give them what they want: empiricism. I was hoping to approach the comparison in a more quantitative version similar to what we might encounter reading one of those fancy medical journals like what Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, or that real popular one, JAMA I think it's called. What would we expect a study of the two cases to look like in those journals?

Just what exactly are the physiological and psychological effects of each drug combo and are those effects qualitatively (not quantitatively), similar?

I suppose we'd have to run some studies on college students. Not sure we could give them cocaine/heroin mixtures though. Surely though this data has already been compiled but Red Bull is new. Has any empirical data been obtained with it? We could do a study if not can call it:

The physiological and psychological effects of alcohol when consumed simultaneously with highly-caffeinated energy drinks.

And include the cocaine/heroin comparison.
DiracPool
#11
Jul2-13, 09:34 PM
P: 580
Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
We could do a study if not can call it:

The physiological and psychological effects of alcohol when consumed simultaneously with highly-caffeinated energy drinks.

And include the cocaine/heroin comparison.
I seriously doubt we will ever see such a study. I'd venture to guess that there are already a good number of studies out there dealing with the health effects of energy drinks alone since this is currently a popular concern, and most likely there are studies dealing with the combined effects of energy drinks and alcohol. Try searching pubmed or some other resource if you're interested.
Ryan_m_b
#12
Jul3-13, 05:33 AM
Mentor
Ryan_m_b's Avatar
P: 5,473
I really don't see how you could argue that a vodka red bull is on par with simultaneous ingestion of cocaine and heroin. The latter are well studied for the negative health effects they have and it is well known that they are worse than alcohol and caffeine. Also perhaps this is a cultural thing but in my country a vodka redbull is a very popular and common drink, never heard of anyone having any significant medical problems because of it (compared to just ingestion of alcohol).

Searching for alcohol and energy drinks gives plenty of scaremongering news articles but not much actual research. I've found this PDF from a Welsh alcohol agency outlining some of the potential risks but concluding that further research needs to be done:
http://www.drinkwisewales.org.uk/__a...d-messages.pdf
jackmell
#13
Jul3-13, 07:54 AM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by Ryan_m_b View Post
I really don't see how you could argue that a vodka red bull is on par with simultaneous ingestion of cocaine and heroin.]
I can't believe you're arguing with me over this Ryan. But perhaps your use of the word "par" resolves the issue. No, not "par" with cocaine/heroin as I believe I sufficiently explained above. Rather, "qualitatively similar".

I mean are there any members in this forum reading this and agree with me that the effects of alcohol/Red bull mixtures "may be" qualitatively similar to the effects of cocaine/heroin? Ergo Dirac's suggestion of researching it or actually doing clinical studies. But that is the fun of it isn't it? That's the research part, the empirical part, the . . . "real science" part of it isn't it. And that's what we're all about in here. :)
Ryan_m_b
#14
Jul3-13, 09:02 AM
Mentor
Ryan_m_b's Avatar
P: 5,473
To be honest I doubt their even qualitively similar to a significant degree. Yes you can broadly categorise them into stimulants and depressants but cocaine and caffeine have different pathways and different effects, expecially when used regularly. This isn't something that needs a big review, you could do this research yourself. Why not look up the full effects of caffeine, cocaine, alcohol and heroine on the body and see how qualitatively similar they are?
jackmell
#15
Jul4-13, 06:55 PM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by Ryan_m_b View Post
To be honest I doubt their even qualitively similar to a significant degree. Yes you can broadly categorise them into stimulants and depressants but cocaine and caffeine have different pathways and different effects, expecially when used regularly. This isn't something that needs a big review, you could do this research yourself. Why not look up the full effects of caffeine, cocaine, alcohol and heroine on the body and see how qualitatively similar they are?
Ryan, Ryan, it needs a big review in a way sadly not biochemical but alas this is a medical forum and that discussion would be the dreaded "off-subject" kind I think. And yes I could do the (web) research myself and see how qualitatively similar or dis-similar they are. Yes, yes I should do that especially since I made a deal about the science thing. I might not though. Well, I've already done that sort of thing a lot that's why. Now if someone else reading this for instance, a young person entering science for example, were to obtain that data and clearly show (quantitatively, i.e,. with data) the pathways are dis-similar qualitatively and the effects likewise, then we could obtain two birds with one stone: the one being a valuable lesion in science and the second, that I should immediately apologize to you and admit that I was wrong for thinking they were similar.
Borek
#16
Jul5-13, 02:45 AM
Admin
Borek's Avatar
P: 23,591
Bike and truck can be both used to move from point A to point B, so there exist a very broad category "means of transport" that accommodates both, but making direct comparisons doesn't make much sense.
jackmell
#17
Jul5-13, 08:32 AM
P: 1,666
Quote Quote by Borek View Post
Bike and truck can be both used to move from point A to point B, so there exist a very broad category "means of transport" that accommodates both, but making direct comparisons doesn't make much sense.
It makes sense just to do it Borek. Don't you think so? Finding out is the fun part and of course it's chemistry! And to be honest with you guys, I really thought a "speed ball" was speed+heroin and not cocane so if I may do so, I would like the comparison be done with speed and heroin. That is for example, are the paths and effects of speed qualitatively similar to caffeine? For example, we or me likely, could look at the metabolism of amphetamine and compare that with caffeine. I would be interested if the metabolic pathways cross paths, that is, if there is a common intermediate species. If that's the case, then I would argue they are "qualitatively similar" in terms of metabolic pathways. I could then look at the physiological effects of both like heart rate, blood pressure, other effects and then compare them. For example, if speed raises heart rate 25% and caffeine raises is only 5%, then that is qualitatively similar.

I argue that if I were to do these comparisons, I would find similarities of a qualitative nature.
Ryan_m_b
#18
Jul5-13, 09:09 AM
Mentor
Ryan_m_b's Avatar
P: 5,473
It doesn't need a big review. The metabolic effects of these four chemicals are well studied. It would be well within your means to look up and compare them yourself. You don't have to write a paper on it, you could even start by looking up sites that give information on recreational drugs as they typically include legal ones too.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Speed of Light vs Speed of Pool Ball Momentum Special & General Relativity 14
Finding the speed of a ball given some height and falling speed Introductory Physics Homework 5
What is the initial speed of the ball? Introductory Physics Homework 1
Speed of a ball Introductory Physics Homework 7
Momentum - Bull + Ball Introductory Physics Homework 1