another explanation of that poor, poor cat

jcsd

Also pelastration, the measurment problem is not the same thing as uncertainty, the measurment problem is the problem in QM that a measurment isn't a mathematically defined concept.

pelastration

Thanks Croot,

the problem is that from a measuring problem a world/reality image is created that is based on super-position. Super-position is anti-unity as a concept. From the top there is causality, hierachy, ... not anarchy. The start maybe chaotic but the further developments - on the brane - were historical consequent. Uncertainty only exists is the human ignorance and the lack of logic explanation.

chroot

Umm.. I'm pretty certain you've just gone off the scientific radar now. Good luck.

- Warren

pelastration

Good luck too Chroot. The future is uncertain ... I am certain of that ... it's embedded inside your worldview. ;-)

petmar

here here! warren, for once, we agree.

pelastration

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers”Thomas Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home”Ken Olson, founder of DEC, 1977

“Computers in future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons”Popular Mechanics 1949


Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), President of the Royal Society

“Landing and moving around on the moon offer so many serious problems for human beings that it may take science another 200 years to lick them”

“X-rays are a hoax”

“Radio has no future”
“Heavier than air flying machines are impossible”

http://www.nau.edu/rufis99/masterton/tsld003.htm
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...jwa103740.html

-----
I think that a particle must have a separate reality independent of the measurements. That is an electron has spin, location and so forth even when it is not being measured. I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it.
Albert Einstein

God does not play dice.
Albert Einstein

Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.
Albert Einstein

The more success the quantum theory has, the sillier it looks
Albert Einstein

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ins125184.html

jammieg

Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.
Albert Einstein

The more success the quantum theory has, the sillier it looks
Albert Einstein

Sounds like a man with a plan, but things change, not all things are true for all times.[:)]

ranyart

Some years ago I came to the 'observer dependence' principle, which is currently being brought into mainstream Loop Quantum Gravity theories.

Some time ago I had posted in [superstringtheory.com], and I got a lot of response from people in private e-mails, what I had touched upon was the original Shroedinger's Cat experiment, ie..was it a fact that Shroedinger used a Cat as a representation of conscious human observer?..and was this a failing of is ability to comprehend the situaiton if one replaces the cat with a Human?

If one replace's the cat with a Human, then looking from within the Box, one can ask of an outside observer:if the lid opens then I am/was alive before the event of lid opening. How does one know if one is alive?..Desmond Carter once said..I think therfore I am!

This is a self assertion everybody can comprehend, we cannot think outside the Brain box and assertain: I think for you, therefore you are!

The original Shroedinger experiment leaves one to ask this, if the cat is dead, once the box is opened, then it may be that when the box is closed (isolated), then you the outside observer is/am Dead.

If you share the box with the Cat, do you both share the same wavefunction?

As conscious observers we can only ask of others (cats included) what we ask of our selves, and we cannot isolate a box and its contents, without isolating ourselves from the box, this is the measurement problem, and extends from nearby Quantum Realms, to far far away locations in a universal Box!

The quantum dot's wavefunction cannot be influenced by a far away Galactic superlarge Attractor, in the same way that a Super-attractor can be influenced by the wavefunction of the very last atom, at the farthest edge, of a single Hair, on the very tip of your nose![;)]

According to Stastistical Mechanics, if you think, therefore you PROBERBLY are! which can be interpreted as: even if you do not think?, you have an equal chance of still being dead or alive, QED.

The many worlds interpretation allows one cat to be dead, and still be able to comprehend its own existence away from its death, which some people think why Shroedinger used the Cat, it is the old saying that a Cat's:have nine lives..or many worlds..some where its dead..and some where it lives.

jcsd

Raynart, what you posted sounds simlair to the 'Wigner's friend' version of Schoredinger's cat, in which a human is place in the box to observe whether the cat dies or not. However you should be very careful aout jumping to conclusions as what you have also posted sounds alot like 'psycho-parallelism' which is almost universally rejected as explanation of the paradox.

Basically the idea that the cat is in a suppositon of states is rejected as it does not conform to our everyday experince of cats.

selfAdjoint

Well, our everyday experience of cats that we can't see is that they might be anywhere and in any state. So on the interpretation of the wave function that it expresses our state of knowledge about something (I admit this interpretation has technical problems), the everyday cat is then in a superposition of states, which is collapsed to an eigenstate when we see the cat.

jcsd

Yes, but do we ever see an evidence that implies that cats are non-localized? (I asked my cat if she is ever in an uncollapsed state but she just miaowed).

ranyart

[:))]

[:))] Yes..but wait a mo!..I remember seeing an article in Nature that shows that Cats and Mice have a correlation within their brains?

I will dig the article out, I remember the Cat somehow influences the mouse using, well as I recall ESP?..or an equivilent phenonema, but I know it related to Quantum Entanglement States between the Cat and Mouse.

But for now, I will refrain from posting this until further orders![:)]

jammieg

Quantum entaglement is a good example of today's cat, just another experiment that came up with odd results and as a result all kinds of way out there conclusions were drawn from it and of them the most profitable turned out to be a theory of parrelel universes, why?
Becuase it's the one that captures the imagination and emotions the most not reason, it's the one that would make the most sales in Hollywood. Same with the cat I think, it's just harder to go back into the history of it and see it's origins, but the key is if someone in your physics class where to suggest the cat thing today and not back then and nobody had ever heard of it before and he said that it was impossible to know from the observer's point of view so the cat is both alive and dead, we would probably immediately see it as lacking in explanation and want to know what they meant, and so they would go on to explain that instruments don't exist to see the quantum world directly just as we can't see the cat directly and so we have to use mathematical probabilities and formulas to really work with these things and it gets real complicated with probabilities but even more so with lack of detailed explanations and people trying to capitalize on real science to extend to media and make money off of hype.

jcsd

Jammieg, the Schroedinger's cat experiment has never been perfomed as due to decoherence, you could not expect to get anything other than a classical result. It is a thought experiment and is one orginally cretaed to attamept to show the absurdity of the Copenhagen interpretation.

Qantum Entanglemnt was predicted before it was tested and infact Schroedinger's cat would represent a many particle entangled system, which is why it decoheres.

For the third time, the idea that the cat is in a suppostion of states in genereally rejected, which poses the question: why don't macroscopic objects exhibit quantum behaviour? with probaly the best answer being: decoherence.

JKLM

Of course we can't measure the uncertainty principle the idea is that the different possibilities exist in seperate universes or exsist at the same time the second you open that box the cat becomes either dead or alive. However, there was an experiment done with light put through a small hole and how the shadows and the illuminated parts blended I don't quite remember the particulars. Anyway it shows the effect of the uncertainty principle in real life

jcsd

We can measure the uncertainty principle quite easily as a matter of factas it places a limit on our abilty to predict the outcome of experiments and this limit is easily measured. The idea of mutiple universe is only one intepretation of QM and not the convential one either.

You mean the two-slit diffraction experiment, which in the way you've described it, doesn't indicate uncertainty at all as you've described in a way which can be fully explained by classical theories.