John Nash: "Great Wits and Madness Near Allied"

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between genius and mental illness, particularly in the context of mathematicians and historical figures like John Nash. Participants explore various perspectives on the mental health of notable mathematicians and the implications of their conditions on their work and social interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that John Nash associated his madness with a unique intellectual perspective, suggesting that a "cure" might hinder his original work.
  • Others mention that many mathematicians, including Cantor and Russell, struggled with mental health issues, with Russell reportedly contemplating suicide due to unresolved mathematical problems.
  • A participant argues that Nash does not fit typical psychiatric diagnoses, highlighting his unique experiences with hallucinations and suggesting an undiagnosed organic problem.
  • There is a discussion about the applicability of Asperger's syndrome to historical figures like Einstein and Newton, with some arguing that their behaviors do not align with the diagnosis.
  • Another participant lists several mathematicians, asserting that they often exhibit traits of insanity or social difficulties, citing examples like Gödel and Pythagoras.
  • One participant humorously critiques the use of outdated diagnostic terminology, referencing the DSM-0/1 and its informal terms.
  • There is a reference to Nash's teaching methods, indicating a change in his approach over time, as noted in the film "A Beautiful Mind."

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the connection between genius and mental illness, with no clear consensus on the applicability of specific diagnoses to historical figures. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of mental health on the work of mathematicians.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about historical figures' mental health are based on anecdotal evidence and may lack comprehensive support. The discussion includes various assumptions about the nature of genius and mental illness, which are not universally accepted.

Ivan Seeking
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...The disease began to evaporate in the early 1970s and Nash began to gradually to return to his work in mathematics. However, Nash himself associated his madness with his living on an "ultralogical" plane, "breathing air too rare" for most mortals, and if being "cured" meant he could no longer do any original work at that level, then, Nash argued, a remission might not be worthwhile in the end. As John Dryden once put it:

Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do their bounds divide.

(John Dryden, Absalom and Achitophel, 1681) [continued]
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/nash.htm
 
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not really anything surprising there (to me anyway). cantor was very depressed all his life, & so was russell too. i think when russell was young he'd go sit in some 'secret place' & consider suicide on a regular basis. the only thing keeping him from actually going through with it was that there were unsolved math problems. lots if math people are borderline autistic, which keeps them working obsessively on something. i think people call it asperger's syndrome, which is like autism's little brother. i read in the paper that there's evidence to suggest that einstein & Newton had it.
 
Check out Nash's reviews as well:

http://ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=25653
 
fourier jr said:
lots if math people are borderline autistic, which keeps them working obsessively on something. i think people call it asperger's syndrome, which is like autism's little brother.
I just read a book on autistic savants, among whom you find the amazing mental calculators, and another book on Asperger's syndrome. Neither of these diagnoses fit John Nash.

Nor does he fit squarely into any of the psychiatric diagnoses, although he was diagnosed as "schizophrenic". He is the only person I've ever heard of who has had such extended visual and auditory hallucinations involving recurring characters. Visual hallucinations are actually fairly rare in mental illness, and are generally not extended, and definitely not so coherent over so many years. I think John Nash has some undiagnosed organic problem.

i read in the paper that there's evidence to suggest that einstein & Newton had it.
The more I find out about Asperger's I think it is really, really unlikely that Einstein or Newton had it. They both may have had some kind of syndrome or very mild pathology, but I don't think it was Asperger's. Einstein, in particular, was too socially adept, too sensitive to social signals, to be given this diagnosis. His language delay almost rules Asperger's out since Asperger's kids tend to be the opposite: quite precocious, learning to speak and read before their contemporaries.

I actually know very little about Newton as a person except that he was a recluse and got into many heated arguments via letters. Asperger's people tend to be non-confrontational, and greatly dislike the stress of argumentation.

Some great people in history did, certainly, have major neurological problems about which there's little doubt: Julius Caesar and Dostoyevski had seizures, Samuel Johnson had Tourettes, Nikola Tesla had Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, Beethoven was bipolar (manic/depressive), but this suggested diagnosis of Asperger's doesn't actually fit in these two cases (or for John Nash).
 
"Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do their bounds divide."

This has to be the original statement of the famous cliche "There is a thin line between genius and madness."

I found the poem online and went to check out the context in which it was said. However...

In looking for the context of this notion,
I found you have to navigate an ocean.
This "Absalom..." is not a minute's reading,
And slogging through it gets the sweat a'beading.

John Dryden: Absalom and Achitophel, page 1
Address:http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/Anthology/Dryden/Absalom1.htm
 
The greatest mathematicians always are either a) insane or b) are not very sociable/can not get along well with other people. Case in point

Godel- Insane. Starved himself to death. Germophobe.
Nash-Schizo
Gauss- Complete Jerk
Erdos- Hobo
Pythagoras- Thought it was sinful to eat beans

and the list goes on
 
gravenewworld said:
The greatest mathematicians always are either a) insane or b) are not very sociable/can not get along well with other people. Case in point

Godel- Insane. Starved himself to death. Germophobe.
Nash-Schizo
Gauss- Complete Jerk
Erdos- Hobo
Pythagoras- Thought it was sinful to eat beans

and the list goes on
I see that you use the DSM-0/1 for your terminology. It also includes such diagnoses as:

Looney
Nuts
Weird
Whacko
Loopy
Ditsy

And, the favorite of PF member Math Is Hard: Crazy As A Bessie-Bug
 
The_Professional said:
Check out Nash's reviews as well:

http://ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=25653

things seem to have really changed. in a beautiful mind i read that he'd put fermat's last theorem on tests & also have as a question "what is your name?" & take 25% off if they just put their name instead of the complete phrase "my name is ____". goo to see if he's changed his ways