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Why is separation of earth and sky so common in different mythologies?

by tarekatpf
Tags: common, earth, mythologies, separation
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tarekatpf
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May1-14, 02:38 AM
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Why is separation of earth and sky so common in different mythologies around the world?

EDIT: Sorry about my poor phrasing of the question. My question is actually why people would assume earth and sky were joined once. Which observation/ reasoning led them to make up such a non-obvious story? I thought, for two things to be separated, they have to be joined first, and the idea of the earth and sky's being joined once would bring questions to people's minds spontaneously.
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Simon Bridge
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May1-14, 03:06 AM
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Because that's what everybody sees.
Any story about the World has to comment on what you see.

Note: do not confuse "sky" with "atmosphere" or "air".
tarekatpf
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May1-14, 05:12 AM
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Thank you very much. My question was actually why in so many mythologies we find that earth and the heavens ( whatever that means: skies/ stars/ space or I don't know what ) were once together, and then were separated. Why would they assume the Earth and the heavens were together once?

adjacent
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May1-14, 05:14 AM
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Why is separation of earth and sky so common in different mythologies?

Quote Quote by tarekatpf View Post
Thank you very much. My question was actually why in so many mythologies we find that earth and the heavens ( whatever that means: skies/ stars/ space or I don't know what ) were once together, and then were separated. Why would they assume the Earth and the heavens were together once?
Can you give some examples of mythologies assuming that?
Bandersnatch
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May1-14, 05:22 AM
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Is it all that common though? I can't think of a mythology that has Earth and sky as a single entity being then separated into two, unless you count Greek Gaia giving birth to Uranus.
Other mythologies I know of have the sky born from primeval waters(Egyptian), separated from the primeval sea to form the firmament(Babylonian, Hebrew), being part of the world tree(Slavic), or not mentioned as a separate entity at all - just as a place to hang the stars on(Finnish, Norse).
tarekatpf
#6
May1-14, 05:43 AM
P: 138
Thank you very much adjacent and Bandersnatch.

Geb and Nut ( Egyptian )
Kronos and Rhea ( Greek )
Rangi and Papa in Maori Mythology
An and Ki in Sumerian Mythology

For more, please visit this google books page.
tarekatpf
#7
May1-14, 05:47 AM
P: 138
Another example in Chinese mythology.

Or simply look up Hundun.
Enigman
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May1-14, 06:09 AM
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Quote Quote by tarekatpf View Post
Kronos and Rhea ( Greek )
That should be Oranus and Gaia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%...%29#Punishment
tarekatpf
#9
May1-14, 06:21 AM
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Quote Quote by Enigman View Post
Thank you for the information. About the separation of Kronos and Rhea, I read it from that google books page.
Bandersnatch
#10
May1-14, 06:41 AM
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I don't think you meant to include Kronos and Rhea. The Greek gods/titans of sky and earth were Uranus and Gaia. Kronos castrated Uranus, which is the type of separation your first link focuses on - not a single entity being split in two(as in Babylonian and Sumerian myths) but two entities that kept mating and giving birth to other gods until they were forcibly pulled apart.

Just a minor nitpick.


As for why would various peoples feel the need to include such type of myths, I think it all just boils down to what Simon said earlier - myths describe the world as it is seen.


I'm not sure if this sort of speculation fits into PF rules, but let me give it a try:

If you're a tribe living on flat plains, you see the world as consisting of Earth and sky, which appear to touch on the horizon. All the other stuff in the world is tiny and insignificant compared to the vastness of these two. So it doesn't seem terribly strange that you'd make these two the major/primal gods that you begin your creation story with. Since they're the first beings, all the other gods need to come from them. Then you end up needing to explain why they no longer make new gods like they did in the days of yore, so you come up with castration, patricide or other kind of separation.

If you're a tribe living by the sea, you find the vastness of the sea much more prominent than that of the land, so it features in your mythology. The sea also appears to be "better" connected with the sky - they seem to blend into one at the horizon, so it lends itself even more to including the link between the two as a part of your creation story.

If you're living in a heavily forested region, the horizon is less apparent, but trees are abundant. So you end up with world trees connecting the sky, earth, and underworld.

The bottom line being, you describe what you see, and most cultures saw plenty of sky, sea, and open land.


Then there's the regional intermingling of cultures, and borrowing of myths. The Hebrew bible took many ideas from the Babylonian Enuma Elish, which in turn was strongly influenced by the Sumerian creation myths. So it's not a surprise neighbouring cultures have similar creation myths, even if they had little to do with their conception.
Simon Bridge
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May1-14, 07:12 AM
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Other examples:
Maori: Rangi and Papa start out as two entities in a tight embrace until they were forced to separate by their children needing room to grow.
In Christian mythology God makes "firmament" to separate the waters above from the waters below (Gen 1:6-8) etc etc etc.

The mythology story has to explain the separation that exists today ... the separation at least implies the possibility of togetherness so why not? Why not have the sky touch the ground and we are all swimming in blueness?

There are two (obvious) broad possibilities: [1]
1. the two were originally together and became separated
2. the two started out separate and stayed that way.

This is almost creation vs steady-state isn't it? Not quite but you see what I mean?

It certainly seems that one style is more common than the other.

Is that due to some human tendency to prefer creation/unified-origin (whatever) stories to "been that way forever/from the start" stories or is it more to do with the way Judeo-Christian culture dominates western society these days... so only similar stories tend to get retold? Maybe a combination?

Have you been able to find stories where the sky and earth were separate from the beginning?

But the way to understand the preference for one to the other - either way - is to look at what sort of problems the story is supposed to solve. What was the social and political role of the narrative?

Finally: wouldn't we expect broad similarities in these sorts of stories between different cultures? They are all stories told by human beings. Differences in culture seem to show up in the dissimilarities of the details instead.

------------------------

[1] technically 3. both of the above, and 4. none of the above - but hey ho...
Simon Bridge
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May1-14, 07:19 AM
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Quote Quote by tarekatpf View Post
Thank you for the information. About the separation of Kronos and Rhea, I read it from that google books page.
I can't read it .... I cannot find a reference to Cronus and Rhea being Sky and Earth anywhere else - can you?

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/u/uranus.html
I find lots of references to Gaia being Earth and Uranus being sky.
In this mythology, the sky and the earth are periodically together and apart, but finally separate permanently due to Cronus' action.

So here we seem to have another possibility apart from the obvious ... sky and earth start out apart, and come together only to be forced apart again.

Perhaps the prevalance you have noticed is just due to that particular story being "obvious"?
tarekatpf
#13
May1-14, 08:24 AM
P: 138
Quote Quote by Bandersnatch View Post
I don't think you meant to include Kronos and Rhea. The Greek gods/titans of sky and earth were Uranus and Gaia. Kronos castrated Uranus, which is the type of separation your first link focuses on - not a single entity being split in two(as in Babylonian and Sumerian myths) but two entities that kept mating and giving birth to other gods until they were forcibly pulled apart.

Just a minor nitpick.


As for why would various peoples feel the need to include such type of myths, I think it all just boils down to what Simon said earlier - myths describe the world as it is seen.


I'm not sure if this sort of speculation fits into PF rules, but let me give it a try:

If you're a tribe living on flat plains, you see the world as consisting of Earth and sky, which appear to touch on the horizon. All the other stuff in the world is tiny and insignificant compared to the vastness of these two. So it doesn't seem terribly strange that you'd make these two the major/primal gods that you begin your creation story with. Since they're the first beings, all the other gods need to come from them. Then you end up needing to explain why they no longer make new gods like they did in the days of yore, so you come up with castration, patricide or other kind of separation.

If you're a tribe living by the sea, you find the vastness of the sea much more prominent than that of the land, so it features in your mythology. The sea also appears to be "better" connected with the sky - they seem to blend into one at the horizon, so it lends itself even more to including the link between the two as a part of your creation story.

If you're living in a heavily forested region, the horizon is less apparent, but trees are abundant. So you end up with world trees connecting the sky, earth, and underworld.

The bottom line being, you describe what you see, and most cultures saw plenty of sky, sea, and open land.


Then there's the regional intermingling of cultures, and borrowing of myths. The Hebrew bible took many ideas from the Babylonian Enuma Elish, which in turn was strongly influenced by the Sumerian creation myths. So it's not a surprise neighbouring cultures have similar creation myths, even if they had little to do with their conception.
Thank you very much for such a nice answer.

However, it's still not clear to me why people would assume the sky and earth were TOGETHER in the first place? It's certainly not a commonsensical thought.


I can give you other examples. I was born in a Muslim family, and read Quran. 21:30 says, "Heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them?" It was almost identical with creation myths from around the world. I was familiar with the story of Geb and Nut already, so I thought it must have come from Egyptian mythology. How could I find evidence?



Well, in the next verse, it was said, "We created every living thing from water." Well, of course, that doesn't make sense. I wasn't "created from" water. Then some translators translated it like this: "We created every living thing of water." Well, that makes sense, though. So, if it was imported from Egyptian mythology too, then the creator of living things in Egyptian mythology must be a god of water, too. And there, I found it. Khnum. And moreover, Khnum created living things out of a potter's wheel. The Quran mentions it, too, in 55:14.


Then I thought, why would they assume a river god was supposed to make living things also? Well, it was obvious. The Nile would flood its banks every year, and out of silts and water would emerge plants, and animals would live on it. Moreover, since out of silts grew plants, they assumed, out of clay life originates, hence the myth of the potter's wheel.


So, I asked myself, which observation led them to believe that Earth and heavens were once joined together? Why wouldn't they exist separately from the beginning? I knew other mythology stories said the same thing. But I haven't yet quite understood.

EDIT: I was thinking what is common between the geographies of Egypt, New Zealand, China, Iraq? I haven't found anything yet.
tarekatpf
#14
May1-14, 08:30 AM
P: 138
Quote Quote by Simon Bridge View Post

Is that due to some human tendency to prefer creation/unified-origin (whatever) stories to "been that way forever/from the start" stories or is it more to do with the way Judeo-Christian culture dominates western society these days... so only similar stories tend to get retold? Maybe a combination?

Have you been able to find stories where the sky and earth were separate from the beginning?

But the way to understand the preference for one to the other - either way - is to look at what sort of problems the story is supposed to solve. What was the social and political role of the narrative?

I can't recall at the moment if I have ever read a mythology story in which in the beginning, earth and heavens were separated.

But I am interested in knowing the reason you asked there, too. What observation did lead them to make up a story that earth and heavens were joined together? And why prefer a joined version to a separate version?
DavidSnider
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May1-14, 02:32 PM
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I think it's pretty intuitive that anytime two related things are apart humans will assume they were once together.

If you saw an apple cut in half, you wouldn't assume it came that way.
Ryan_m_b
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May1-14, 03:58 PM
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This is a feature of Christian mythology too, in genesis god separates the Earth (at that point just ocean) from "Heaven" AKA the sky. It may be common as a lot of creation stories assume the world was made as one then separated out and the sky and the ground are two very prominent parts of nature. It's probably also worth considering that many mythologies are based on older myths, Greek and Roman mythologies share a lot of gods and other characteristics for example.

This book is a bit dated but seems to cover just this topic:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U2K09vldUuc
tarekatpf
#17
May1-14, 09:45 PM
P: 138
Quote Quote by DavidSnider View Post
I think it's pretty intuitive that anytime two related things are apart humans will assume they were once together.

If you saw an apple cut in half, you wouldn't assume it came that way.
But the two halves of an apple look more or less exactly similar, while no such thing between the sky and earth.
tarekatpf
#18
May1-14, 09:56 PM
P: 138
Quote Quote by Ryan_m_b View Post
This is a feature of Christian mythology too, in genesis god separates the Earth (at that point just ocean) from "Heaven" AKA the sky. It may be common as a lot of creation stories assume the world was made as one then separated out and the sky and the ground are two very prominent parts of nature. It's probably also worth considering that many mythologies are based on older myths, Greek and Roman mythologies share a lot of gods and other characteristics for example.

This book is a bit dated but seems to cover just this topic:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U2K09vldUuc
Yes, but Maoi and Chinese mythologies are more likely to have originated independently of Greek and nearby mythologies.

My hypothesis would be: People thought earth is the "natural place" of everything ( like Aristotle thought of "natural places." ) They thought so, because if you do not hold an apple in midair, it always drops. So, it's pretty reasonable to assume that everything would remain on Earth if no external force was there. So, stars must have been on Earth someday as well. Now that they are above, they must have been separated by some external deities. They would think earth is the original home of everything, because earth looks very large relative to those celestial objects. You might say they were the earliest physicists trying to explain why some objects always drop on Earth and not others.


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