Can the 3rd Derivative Theorem Simplify Calculating Higher Order Derivatives?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of a theorem that allows for the direct calculation of higher-order derivatives, specifically second and third derivatives, without first deriving the lower-order derivatives. Participants explore various methods and concepts related to this topic, including specific examples and mathematical techniques.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a theorem exists for deriving second or third derivatives directly, using the example of \(\frac{d^3}{dx^3} \left( \frac{x}{2x - 1} \right)\).
  • Another participant suggests looking into Leibniz Identity as a potential resource.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the existence of such a theorem, with one stating, "I don't believe so."
  • One participant humorously proposes a theorem that states the third derivative of a constant is zero, but this is challenged by another who points out that C is a function of x.
  • Another participant mentions that there are "nice" functions for which derivatives can be found through substitution, using sine as an example.
  • Several participants discuss Taylor's theorem, noting that it allows for the extraction of any derivative from the Taylor series of a function.
  • One participant describes a method involving factorials (n!) for obtaining derivatives, providing specific examples and results.
  • Another participant argues that the process described is simply finding patterns of derivatives rather than establishing a new theorem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of a theorem for directly calculating higher-order derivatives. There are multiple competing views, with some advocating for the use of established methods like Taylor series, while others express doubt about the existence of a direct theorem.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific mathematical techniques and examples, but there is no agreement on a unified theorem or method. The discussion highlights the complexity and variability in approaches to calculating higher-order derivatives.

Orion1
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Does a theorem exist for the derivation of a second or third derivative equation, without having to first derive the first and second equation derivatives?

Example equation:
[tex]\frac{d^3}{dx^3} \left( \frac{x}{2x - 1} \right)[/tex]

 
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Orion1 said:
Does a theorem exist for the derivation of a second or third derivative equation, without having to first derive the first and second equation derivatives?

Example equation:
[tex]\frac{d^3}{dx^3} \left( \frac{x}{2x - 1} \right)[/tex]

Take a look at Leibniz Identity.
 
Thats not what he's asking about, and to the OP: I don't believe so.
 
Hmm, yeah - if there is - it will make life much easier :p
 
Well, we can easily make them couldn't we :)?

[tex]\begin{array}{rcl}\frac{d^3}{dx^3}C &=& \frac{d}{dx}\frac{d}{dx}\frac{d}{dx}C\\<br /> &=& \frac{d}{dx}\frac{d}{dx}0\\<br /> &=& \frac{d}{dx}0\\<br /> &=& 0\end{array}[/tex]

Thus we get our first theorem:

[tex]\frac{d^3}{dx^3}C &=& 0[/tex]

etc etc...
 
Last edited:
C is a function of x.. you don't get a 0
 
I think he was being sarcastic and claiming C to stand for constant.
 
Nope,there's no theorem,but there are functions,"nice" ones,for which u can find,by a mere substitution,the derivative of arbitrary order.

To give you an example:take "sine".Compute its "n"-th order derivative.

Daniel.
 
Taylor's theorem. :smile:

If you can find the Taylor Series for the function around a, then you can read off the value of any derivative you want at a.

(Say... by using the geometric series formula)
 
  • #10
Hurkyl's advice is very satisfactory...with the help of taylor series any derivative cn be found..
 
  • #11
actually the example he gave is rather trivial if rewritten as [1/2][ 1 minus something like (2x-1)^(-1)]
 
  • #12
n factorial...



My calculus book describes using an [tex]n![/tex] method for obtaining derivatives:

Example equation:
[tex]y = \frac{1}{3x^3}[/tex]

Where:
[tex]\frac{d^{n}y}{dx^{n}} = \frac{(-1)^n (n+2)!}{(6x^{n+3})}[/tex]

Then:
[tex]\boxed{\frac{d^{3}y}{dx^{3}} = - \frac{20}{x^6}}[/tex]

Unfortunately, the [tex]n![/tex] method originates after obtaining several of the original derivatives first.

Example equation 2 (post#1):
[tex]y = \frac{x}{2x - 1}[/tex]

Where:
[tex]\frac{d^{n}y}{dx^{n}} = \frac{(-1)^n (2^{n-1}) n!}{(2x-1)^{n+1}}[/tex]

Then:
[tex]\boxed{\frac{d^{3}y}{dx^{3}} = - \frac{24}{(2x - 1)^4}}[/tex]

Which seems to indicate the existence of a missing theorem, therefore, what is the [tex]n![/tex] theorem?

 
Last edited:
  • #13
there's no theorem here, you're just finding patterns of derivatives and manipulating them. This is taught in Calc I..
 

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