telepathy and Sheldrake

*PIT2*

Quote by SGT

And can you see it happening in the macro world? If yes, please explain it to me. In my understanding wavefunction is a property associated to particles, not to sets of particles like a rock or a human being.

Well i havent yet invented a theory of everything, so no, i cannot explain it to u.

But since we are talking about consciousness experiencing telepathy, it is even unclear whether it belongs in the micro or macroscopic domain, or both. After all, what is the size of a thought?

zoobyshoe

The set up reported in the quote you provided, Pit2, sounds pretty good, although I am a bit leary of the fact they only specified that the two Faraday cages were "soundproof". Call me a stickler, but I want to be assured they were both "light proof". It would mean nothing at all if it turned out the second subject could see the flashes off in the distance. If he could, there would be no mystery whatever to his having "simlar" evoked potentials.

The other thing I would want to know is what they mean by "similar". EEGs are notoriously hard to read, and can be interfered with in many ways. They are notoriously sensitive to any EM waves in the vicinity, especially fluoresent lamps. If the lamps inside the Faraday cages were plugged in to the same lines as the strobe lights, then there in a good chance those lamps would oscillate slightly along with the strobe light.
The "similar" evoked potentials, could well have been picked up from the lamps, and not the person's head. This would have undercut a main point of putting the people in the Faraday cages to begin with.

Do they show the EEG tracings comparing the responses of the two subjects during the strobe stimulation? (I would look myself, but I can't open pdf files.)

Their point is to show there is telepathy, and that it is not electromagnetic. Their set up seems sound to me in principle, but you wouldn't believe the dumb mistakes people can make. So, I would like to be sure that the cages were lightproof, and that all the equipment had independent power.

SGT

Quote by PIT2

Well i havent yet invented a theory of everything, so no, i cannot explain it to u.

But since we are talking about consciousness experiencing telepathy, it is even unclear whether it belongs in the micro or macroscopic domain, or both. After all, what is the size of a thought?

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles. Is a thought material?

*PIT2*

The experiment u are talking about (by Grinberg-Zylberbaum) is only briefly mentioned in the paper. The details u are requesting arent in it.

Oh and SGT, about how they intend to measure quantum superluminal communication:

(1). Complete the experiment at much longer distance, say longer than the bound distance 40km, in which the possible classical signals with light speed can’t be used to explain the statistical relevance between the potentials of the subjects. Thus we can strictly confirm that telepathy is one kind of superluminal and non-electromagnetic phenomena, and further confirm the existence of “QSC condition” in human brains.
(2). Replace the flashes with flickering light. Here the evoked potentials of the stimulated subject will contain some measurable frequency information. It is expected that the corresponding transferred potentials of the other subject will contain the same measurable frequency information. Then we can use the transferred frequency information to realize non-electromagnetic and superluminal human brain communication more reliably.

http://cogprints.org/3065/01/qmt.pdf

*PIT2*

Quote by SGT

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles. Is a thought material?

lol is that supposed to be a trick question?

Anyway, whether a thought is material or not is unfortunately unknown. And exactly what is 'material', is also unknown.

zoobyshoe

Quote by PIT2

The experiment u are talking about (by Grinberg-Zylberbaum) is only briefly mentioned in the paper. The details u are requesting arent in it.

Oh and SGT, about how they intend to measure quantum superluminal communication:

If they simply prove telepathy, then the superluminal gibberish is pretty much irrelevant.

If the evoked potentials are picked up be the second subject at a large distance like that, it should be headline news around the world in and of itself. If there's anything to it, then any other teams who tries it should have equal success. I think Evo and her daughter ought to be tested this way.

*PIT2*

Quote by zoobyshoe

If they simply prove telepathy, then the superluminal gibberish is pretty much irrelevant.

The paper is not about proving telepathy, but about theorising how it might work.

Heres the introduction from the .pdf:

The physical nature of Psi phenomena such as telepathy is an important problem in the life information science. Scientists have confirmed the existence of telepathy phenomena through many strict experiments[1-3]. Then can modern science (e.g. quantum theory) provide a scientific explanation for telepathy phenomena? In this paper, we will seek the possible quantum nature of telepathy from both theoretical and experimental respects, and present a primary quantum model of telepathy phenomena. It will be shown that, according to the principle of quantum superluminal communication (QSC)[4-11], quantum theory can in principle provide a scientific explanation of telepathy phenomena, and some experiments have indicated the validity of this explanation[6]. Furthermore, we will propose a serious of feasible experimental schemes to test the quantum model, and discuss the technical possibility of realizing controllable and applicable human brain communication on the basis of the proposed experimental schemes. Lastly, we give some remarks and expectations about the technical virtue and application foreground of such communication means.

SGT

Quote by PIT2

The paper is not about proving telepathy, but about theorising how it might work.

Heres the introduction from the .pdf:

The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:

Scientists have confirmed the existence of telepathy phenomena through many strict experiments[1-3].

So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.
And don't tell me that researchers in paranormal phenomena don't care for money. Any scientist would be glad to have such a grant for his/her researches.

*PIT2*

Quote by SGT

The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:
So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.

The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

zoobyshoe

Quote by PIT2

Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

You don't get it, Pit2.

SGT

Quote by PIT2

The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.

zoobyshoe

Quote by SGT

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles.

I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?

persef

Does telepathy relate to quantum ? how can that be ?

*PIT2*

Quote by SGT

Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.

Ur reasoning is illogical.

"oh randy hasnt given his million dollars away yet, so the investigators must be 'bogus'"

Please, try to remain objective and critical. As i said before, the sources are given in the paper.

(btw, i wouldnt want to give my billion dollars away either

)

Ivan Seeking

Quote by zoobyshoe

I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?

Quantum systems remain in an undefined state until measured. Note however that the definition of a measurement is still the subject of debate. There are plenty of good links in the Credible Anomalies Napster: See "The Measurement Problem".

As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron. Just as with light, if we measure the system in such as way that we know which slit the electron passes through, the wavefunction is collapsed and the electron acts like a particle instead of a wave. In this respect there is no difference between the photon, electron, or any subatomic particle; a wave acts like a wave. If we measure for a unique position - one way to collapse the wavefunction - we find a thing that acts like a particle.

zoobyshoe

Quote by Ivan Seeking

As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron.

Does an electron, or any other particle, exhibit the same "self-interference" a photon does in a double slit experiment?

Ivan Seeking

Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work.

The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system.

Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.

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Ivan Seeking Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor Staff Emeritus	Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work. The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system. Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.