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Telepathy and Sheldrake

by sage
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SGT
#127
Jul21-05, 03:54 PM
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Quote Quote by PIT2
The paper is not about proving telepathy, but about theorising how it might work.

Heres the introduction from the .pdf:
The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:
Scientists have confirmed the existence of telepathy phenomena through many strict experiments[1-3].
So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.
And don't tell me that researchers in paranormal phenomena don't care for money. Any scientist would be glad to have such a grant for his/her researches.
PIT2
#128
Jul21-05, 04:39 PM
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Quote Quote by SGT
The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:
So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.
The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...
zoobyshoe
#129
Jul21-05, 05:01 PM
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Quote Quote by PIT2
Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...
You don't get it, Pit2.
SGT
#130
Jul21-05, 06:30 PM
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Quote Quote by PIT2
The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i dont see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...
Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.
zoobyshoe
#131
Jul21-05, 11:26 PM
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Quote Quote by SGT
Wavefunctions are associated to material particles.
I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?
persef
#132
Jul21-05, 11:48 PM
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Does telepathy relate to quantum ? how can that be ?
PIT2
#133
Jul22-05, 12:51 AM
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Quote Quote by SGT
Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.
Ur reasoning is illogical.

"oh randy hasnt given his million dollars away yet, so the investigators must be 'bogus'"

Please, try to remain objective and critical. As i said before, the sources are given in the paper.

(btw, i wouldnt want to give my billion dollars away either )
Ivan Seeking
#134
Jul22-05, 01:25 AM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe
I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?
Quantum systems remain in an undefined state until measured. Note however that the definition of a measurement is still the subject of debate. There are plenty of good links in the Credible Anomalies Napster: See "The Measurement Problem".

As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron. Just as with light, if we measure the system in such as way that we know which slit the electron passes through, the wavefunction is collapsed and the electron acts like a particle instead of a wave. In this respect there is no difference between the photon, electron, or any subatomic particle; a wave acts like a wave. If we measure for a unique position - one way to collapse the wavefunction - we find a thing that acts like a particle.
zoobyshoe
#135
Jul22-05, 02:20 PM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking
As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron.
Does an electron, or any other particle, exhibit the same "self-interference" a photon does in a double slit experiment?
Ivan Seeking
#136
Jul22-05, 03:17 PM
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Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work.

The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system.

Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.
zoobyshoe
#137
Jul22-05, 04:28 PM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking
Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work.
Is the equipement expensive and specialized? In other words, would you only expect to find it at MIT and CalTech, or is it in the range of any school?
The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system.

Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.
This takes some pondering. If I think about it in conjunction with Feynman's insistence in QED that photons are particles, and not waves, then it suggests to me that the "wave function" never refers to any literal wave at all. Rather it seems to mean that what is always a particle has to be analyzed as if it were a wave because this is the only mathematical way to get any traction on the always uncertain arrival point of the particle.

Speaking of a "collapse of the wavefunction" suggests the literal image of a wave, in water, say, traveling out in all directions from a source, and then suddenly contracting all its momentum and energy into a single impact point concentrated on the first obstacle it encounters. I can also, with a little more effort, imagine the same thing happening to an expanding three dimensional spherical shell consisting of comressed air, as in a sound wave. I'm pretty sure, though, these mental models of "wave function" are completely wrong, and that any particle in question always remains a particle despite not traveling in a straight line from source to detector.
Ivan Seeking
#138
Jul22-05, 04:45 PM
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The equipment required for electron diffraction is nominal. We did this experiment at OSU which is hardly known for its physics department budget.

The questions of measurement, collapse, and entanglement are all incredibly intriguing - the motivation for my own physics degree, really - and to a large extent they remain unresolved.

From the Napster: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=58374
Measurement in Quantum Theory
From the inception of Quantum Mechanics (QM) the concept of measurement has proved a source of difficulty. The Einstein-Bohr debates, out of which both the Einstein Podolski Rosen paradox and Schrödinger's cat paradox developed, centered upon this difficulty. The problem of measurement in quantum mechanics arises out of the fact that several principles of the theory appear to be in conflict. In particular, the dynamic principles of quantum mechanics seem to be in conflict with the postulate of collapse. David Albert puts the problem nicely when he says:

'The dynamics and the postulate of collapse are flatly in contradiction with one another ... the postulate of collapse seems to be right about what happens when we make measurements, and the dynamics seems to be bizarrely wrong about what happens when we make measurements, and yet the dynamics seems to be right about what happens whenever we aren't making measurements.' (Albert 1992, 79)

This has come to be known as "the measurement problem" and in what follows, we study the details and examine some of the implications of this problem. [continued]
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-measurement/
Ivan Seeking
#139
Jul22-05, 04:48 PM
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We shouldn't get too far off topic here.
zoobyshoe
#140
Jul22-05, 05:39 PM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking
We shouldn't get too far off topic here.
I'm trying to set up some structure within which to examine the notion of the non-electromagnetic, faster than light energy being proposed as the medium of telepathy.
zoobyshoe
#141
Jul22-05, 08:19 PM
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Here's a lab device I tracked down:

Google Image Result for http://www.telatomic.com/art/electro...iontube_sm.jpg
Address:http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...UTF-8%26sa%3DG

This isn't quite the same as a double-slit experiment, but is similar.

The interesting point is to demonstrate proof of DeBroglie's reciprocal to the assertion that waves act like particles. If so, he said, then particles should act like waves. The electron diffraction tube, apparently, shows them doing just that.

I suspect this tube must be evacuated of air and gas, but they don't mention that it is. I think if it weren't, the electron stream would make the air glow like a neon lamp.

Edit: Much better picture:

Address:http://www.atas.gr/perigrafi.php?pr=2934
Ivan Seeking
#142
Jul22-05, 09:26 PM
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Btw, one of my professors worked on matter wave interferometry. By using matter waves [atoms] instead of light waves to measure accelerations, higher resolution is possible due to the large momentum, hence shorter wavelengths involved.
Ivan Seeking
#143
Jul22-05, 11:10 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe
I'm trying to set up some structure within which to examine the notion of the non-electromagnetic, faster than light energy being proposed as the medium of telepathy.
Well, I'm not about to take on that one, but here is an introduction to entanglement from the Napster.

Quantum Entanglement and Information
Most physicists dismissed the puzzling features of entangled quantum states as an artefact of Einstein's inappropriate ‘detached observer’ view of physical theory, and regarded Bohr's reply to the EPR argument as vindicating the Copenhagen interpretation. This was unfortunate, because the study of entanglement was ignored for thirty years until John Bell's reconsideration and extension of the EPR argument. Bell looked at entanglement in simpler systems than the EPR case: matching correlations between two-valued dynamical quantities, such as polarization or spin, of two separated systems in an entangled state. What Bell showed was that the statistical correlations between the measurement outcomes of suitably chosen different quantities on the two systems are inconsistent with an inequality derivable from Einstein's separability and locality assumptions — in effect from the assumption that the correlations have a common cause.

Bell's investigation generated an ongoing debate on the foundations of quantum mechanics. One important feature of this debate was confirmation that entanglement can persist over long distances(see Aspect et al.), thus falsifying Schrödinger's supposition of the spontaneous decay of entanglement as two entangled particles separate. But it was not until the 1980s that physicists, computer scientists, and cryptographers began to regard the non-local correlations of entangled quantum states as a new kind of non-classical resource that could be exploited, rather than an embarrassment to be explained away. (For further discussion of entanglement as a physical resource, including measuring entanglement, and the manipulation and purification of entanglement by local operations, see "The Joy of Entanglement" by Popescu and Rohrlich in Lo, Popescu, and Spiller, or Nielsen and Chuang.) [continued]
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
zoobyshoe
#144
Jul23-05, 04:08 AM
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Quote Quote by Ivan Seeking
Btw, one of my professors worked on matter wave interferometry. By using matter waves [atoms] instead of light waves to measure accelerations, higher resolution is possible due to the large momentum, hence shorter wavelengths involved.
A bit of googling reveals this area of study has many manifestations. Aparently they've even done it with whole molecules. Here's one paper with a brief history:

Optics and Interferometry with Atoms and Molecules - I. Introduction
Address:http://rleweb.mit.edu/ifm/pubs/AAMOP/AAMOP-I.html

Other links mention "laser cooled atoms" being used, whatever that might mean.

-----

I looked back over some parts of QED, and I think Feynman was quite convinced of the purely particulate nature of photons. The whole first part of that book Photons: Particles of Light is essentially his non-heisenbergian, alternate way of analyzing their behaviour, and analyzing them as particles that take, not the straight path per se, but which favor the path of least time, explains everything.

If you look at what he says about how light behaves the narrower you make a slit for it to go through (on pages 54, 55, and 56 of the paperback edition) I think he has explained the Young double slit experiment without recourse to "collapsing" wave functions. He's obviated the need for the concept of "self-interference" by explaining how a narrower slit prevents the photons that take non-conformist paths from cancelling each other out, which they will do when the slit is large enough.

I think the direction from which you approach all these kinds of apparent mysteries can either exacerbate or evaporate all the kinds of philosophical problems mentioned in your link about measurement, etc.

Anyway, I think I've gotten myself up to speed on the variety of particles that can demonstrate the wave behavior of interference, including particles of matter, that SGT was talking about


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